Hitler decides to finish Britain

But then the BoB starts and it ends with the Blitz, and no German invasion is possible.
Hey, that's what happened in reality!

 

Of course things moving at the speed of the invasion barges almost don't count as moving targets.

After all they did it in what ~600 AD. And Harald came close in 1066. On the other hand the Germany that fought in WWI wasn't going to do it in the first half of the 20th century and probably not in the second half. Unless of course LGM give them a division level teleporter.

Some times sort of. But in this case the Germans needed air supremacy and even that may not have been enough. The LW of 1940 wasn't strong enough to keep the RN off the invasion fleet. Particularly since much of the activity would have been small ships at night. Then consider the RAF wouldn't have let them achieve air supremacy and at a time of their choosing could for take out the LW air superiority.

 

Assuming that Gibraltar was no neutralized after North Africa was taken, the Italians would have a relatively easier time to get to the Atlantic. I have to respectfully disagree, though, that the Italian fleet would be decimated. I'm willing to give them a chance. I concede that they may be at a disadvantage but that does not mean the British fleet will just roll over the Italian navy. As I've mentioned, the two Axis navies will be operating in conjunction with one another. Apart, the Axis navies are not a real threat. But what if they operate together? One thing with Hitler, he was a guy who tended to reinforce success. An Italian presence in the Atlantic could entice Hitler to be more amenable for joint fleet operations. Since we are talking about the Axis taking North Africa, this implies that the Italian Navy and Army scored a few victories of their own. So the fleet that the Italians will send to the Atlantic is a seasoned veteran force.

Another thing to consider: with no major land actions, Germany's few resources could be shifted to support a massive aerial and naval build up.
It would take time but with England on the ropes, it's conceivable for Germany and Italy to think that time is on their side.

 

Went into this in a fairly detailed way in another forum. Turns out that a lot of the Italian ships had fairly short legs. Furthermore a lot of the smaller ones were not really well suited for operations in the Atlantic. Gibraltar neutralized or not forms a choke point where intercepts are more likely. Even with the additional ships the axis are badly out numbered and the Italian BBs while they have their strong points also have some problems.

 

On a little bit of a tangent...I read somewhere that even if Germany was somehow able to attain naval and air superiority they would not have had the transport capabilities to invade. It may have been Bill Shirer.

 

We can rule out the thought of German Naval supremacy with the fact that the German have never and probably will never have the ability to challange the RN on the high seas, I know that this is a what If, but it is passed on real and possible facts. As for German Air supremacy, the Germans attempted this already during 1940 and they failed then, so why would this be different? To quote Joe:

Now even if the Axis won in Africa and shifted production towards there navy and airforce, there navy would take years to build up as well as the docks needed to build these surface ships, which I am sure the British would notice that nice little row of battleships being constructed on the coast, which would just welcome bomber command.

But this does not fit in with history, so why would they operate togehter now?

Ok why?

I am not understanding, why would the Germans have the resources now to not only conduct a type of BoB but also have the resources to harass the RN to the point that they can not conduct operations? Where is the RAF in this what If? We can not forget that the RAF is still a formidable force and will never let the Germans gain the upper hand if they can help it, and the British would never allow the lose of their naval supremacy, that was Britain, without it Britain dies.

 

I am confused... what were you trying to say?

Have you ever shot at a moving target, even if it is slow. Oh and I was referring to navel vessel not barges.

I would actually think that Germany of WW1 would have a better historical chance at invading Britain then in WW2. They had a much more comparable navy then. IMO.

This is back to the point I was making, there was a reason that all shipping was told not to pass through the English channel, they tended to get sunk. This is also why most of the fleet was as far away from German aviation as possible. It not like the RAF ever let a German plane fly over English territory.

Oh and if the Germans could never have won air superiority then why did they almost do it only failing when they shifted to terror bombing vs destruction of the RAF?

See above and Germany did have the ability to win air superiority, navel probably not but lets discuss the potential to win the air war in that thread and just suffice to say that they could have.

In this WHAT IF thread, no one is suggesting that the Germans found all the resources they needed in Germany, but that they refocused their efforts to one end, getting England out of the war. It is not too much to say that the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine could have started working together, Hitler could have got that much done in one meeting, if he had wanted to.

Just because it is not the way that it unfolded does not take it out of the realm of historical possibility.

Saying the Germany could never have invaded England is like saying that France could never have beaten Germany or that Pearl Harbor was unavoidable, all are untrue. The events happened the way they did but that does not preclude anything from changing those outcomes.

 

But when did hitler ever work together with anyone? Whay makes this different now? Certainly not 'because I say so'. France although had the military ability to beat the Germans but they lacked the leadership and trainging to face the Germans, so they were going to lose. Pearl Harbour I think is different, one word from the high command could have saved all those ships, one word from france, would have done nothing.

 

Hitler did not have to work with anyone, he had to tell Goring and oh whats his name in charge of the Navy to get along and work together or meet the firing squad.

Leadership and training are easy to change if the need is seen and acted upon.

Forget one word from up the ladder, had they been sending out scout planes or acted upon the "war warning" they got then it would have been different.

It is all the same, change a policy or a practice and change history.

 

Erich Raeder for the NAvy mate

Good point though, so why didn't it happen more often then it did, and so why would it be an different this time?
Plus the 'change a policy or a practice and change' takes time, especially when using Military Doctrines as an example.

 

raeder's plan to put up a fleet of modern battleships and aircraft carriers capable of supporting a cross-channel invasion had a time line somewhere in 1947. what would the rest of the german armed forces do in the meantime? overrun russia up to the pacific?

why don't you look into the US plan to invade the japanese main island after okinawa. even though the japanese navy was no more, it wouldn't have been a walkover.

 

It does take time for some things but giving the order to get things done takes very little. Thanks for the help on the name. It would be different because in my what if world I made the change happen... so there.

No one said anything about building a navy to take on the RN, just getting the current navy to work with the Luftwaffe to work together. I could recommend a few changes there but no need.

Yes, the invasion of Japan would have been difficult but then again it is vastly different from invading England. IMO.

 

Excelent question T.A

When, where and by how is difficult but you have raised some serious senarios.

First off i would have developed a better photo reconnaissance of Britain prior to Operation Adler, find out where the main aircraft manufacturing plants are, power supplies, major road and rail junctures (within the invasion areas), early warning (radar stations) what i am saying is that the Luftwaffe puts together a list of say 50 of the most vital strategic targets with southern Britain (Exclusion of London) and when Adler Tag is launched hit those targets hard and often, operate day and night from the outset, giving no respite to the defending figher pilots.

Hitler convinces Mussolini that the Balkans is not a priority but North Africa is and before the British know what is going on target North Africa and the Middle East, With the help of the Italians and Vichy French Germany transfers an entire Army Group to North Africa and one or two Demi-Luftflottes and by september or October 1940 while Britain is fighting for her life launch a major offensive against the British 8th Army with German, Italian and Vichy French forces under direct German control from the outset.

These are some answers.

v.R

 

The only catch is for every month there is a delay in Barbarossa, the Soviet Union gets stronger. If Britain does not fall by late 42' a German invasion of the Sovie Union would all but eliminate all of the advantages which the Wehrmacht held in 41'.

 

Yes

But most of the invasion fleet would have been barges. And Coastal guns actually had a pretty good record against even naval vessels.

Typo on my part. Should have read WW2 rather than WW1.

There's a difference between necessary and unnecessary risk. The LW was in particular not all that good at sinking naval vessels that were up to speed and had plenty of AA ammo.

You didn't read what I said. I said they could never have attained air supremacy and couldn't even have maintained air superiority over southern England. Histoically it can be argued that they were not at all close to achieving air superiority for any significant length of time over even southern England unless the RAF gave it to them. The shift to bombing London had little impact on their being able to achieve air supremacy or even being able to maintain air superiority over Southern England for any significant period of time.

 

I tried to read what you said, maybe I didn't understand it but that is another problem all together.

My point is that Germany could have won air supremacy and kept it over southern England and the Channel. You say (as I understand it) that it was a matter of the RAF letting them. I would like to put forth a source, a book, a real book written by someone who is English and was there. Duel of Eagles: The Struggle for the ... - Google Book Search The preview tab has several pages and makes for interesting reading. He points out that while Germany almost did win BoB. Even with the RAF not letting them.

While air supremacy is part of the preconditions to finish England lets not get to caught up on it here. You said it was impossible and I said it was. If that is your point please do not revisit it again and again most of us probably read it and noted it. We do not have to agree, like you dont have to agree with what I said.

 

What?

Maybe you should revist some of the BoB threads or maybe some websites, or even better some books on the subject.

If you wish to continue this start a thread, for that is of the subject here.

 

That may be true, but imagine that Metropolitan Britain has just been knocked out of the war and that the German are in occupiance of Metroplitan Britain. The Luftwaffe has learned the valuable lesson of conducting co-ordinated strategic/tactical war. Germany and her Axis Allies could still delay Barbarossa 12 months, i agree the Soviet army would be stronger but even a 12 month delay the very same structure of the Soviet Army would essentially be the same, but the German are at least battled hardened and have 3 years worth of war doctorine to fall back on, while the Soviets apart from Finland and Eastern Poland have had virtually no experience in modern war.

In time the Soviets would learn, i have no doubt about that, but initially they still would suffer the catastrophic defeats early on.

v.R.

 

How? They were never close to it and getting further away as the BOB progressed.

No. I said the RAF might have granted them air superiority over Southern England but the specific reason for doing so would have been to prevent air supremacy.

There is a very telling chart that's on a number of sites. I'll see if I can post it here. It shows the relative fighter strenths of fighter command and the LW. The British thought they were loosing and the Germans thought they were winning but that was because of bad intel on both sides.

 

Why?

??? Care to put that in standard English?