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Hitler dies on July 20, 1944

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Watson, Aug 22, 2010.

  1. Watson

    Watson Member

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    Stauffenberg stays with his bomb and prevents it from being moved behind the table leg. Hitler is killed. Who assumes leadership of Germany? What effect does it have on the war? Do the Allies continue their attacks, or is there a negotiated peace?
     
  2. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Unconditional surrender is going to be the outcome, no matter who replaces Hitler. That wasn't going to change, for the very good reason the FDR had been at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 and he recognized full well the fallicy of NOT defeating the Germans completely in a military sense. On this he and Churchill were in complete agreement, without the allied troops parading in Berlin, the Germans would continue to claim they had never lost the war. Just as they did the last time they sued for peace after an armistice.

    Churchill later claimed to have been "surpised" by the announcement at the Casablanca Conference, but since minutes exist which show he and FDR were actively engaged in the decision before it was announced that is a bit mysterious. I personally think Churchill was "surprised" by the timing of the announcement, not the content.

    That was going to be the condition upon which the Axis surrendered, it wasn't going to alter. That doesn't mean NO terms BTW, which some people continue to espouse. It means; "Accept these terms without negotiation. Accept them or continue the fight until you do."
     
  3. R. Evans

    R. Evans Member

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    There would have been no negotiated peace. The only option was unconditional surrender.
     
  4. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    This technically is not a properly formatted 'What If '.

    Your neck isn't out far enough yet; tell us what you think would happen and why.
     
  5. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Patron  

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    Not to be a spoilsport, but the OP put this up six months ago, and hasn't posted since September. I think it's unlikely that this will go any further.
     
  6. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Maybe R. Evans will pick it up, it's kind of an interesting question and by 'interesting' I mean impending train wreck.
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Anyway, I recall only some coup members in Paris and Stauffenberg in Berlin were able to do something after the incident ( bomb explosion ). So it seems there were no real leaders to lead the coup after Stauffenberg, and perhaps the reason why Stauffenberg did not stay with the bomb?
     
  8. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor Patron  

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    It would be a three way civil war (conspirators, Goring and Himmler)
     
  9. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member Patron  

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    I think a two party civil war as I suspect Goring would attempt to join either the conspiracy or Himmler. My best guess would be for him to try first with the conpsirators thinking that he was a military man he would be treated as such by them, and there by gain control of the uprising making him the new leader of the Reich. If they won't have him, then try to make a pact with Himmler
     
  10. R. Evans

    R. Evans Member

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    Even if that were the case and Goring is in charge, I don't think it would matter one whit to the Allies. Himmler, Goring, Bormann,..whoever. Their choice for peace is limited to one option: Surrender unconditionally.
     
  11. Lost Watchdog

    Lost Watchdog Member

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    - Yes but ..... in the western democracies it would be a hard sell to tell the soldiers and their families that they must keep fighting and dying eventhough the Germans want to surrender. Imagine Roosevelt trying to tell the US public, Congress, media (the anti-communist press would have a field day - GIs die for Joe (stalin) that resources will not be sent to the Pacific, instead kept in Europe to fight an enemy that wants to give up.
    If the new German regime was smart, it would offer deals to the smaller Allied nations - Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium - adopt a neutral stance and we will withdraw from your country.
     
  12. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Stalin would not believe the news and would send 3 million soldiers to investigate ;)
     
    Tamino, Falcon Jun and Lost Watchdog like this.
  13. Gromit801

    Gromit801 Member

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  14. Calvin183

    Calvin183 recruit

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    Hi guys,

    This is my first post ever so bear with me if I make a couple of mistakes :D

    I believe that If Hitler had died on July 20th 1944, An unconditional surrender would have taken place within a few weeks to months. After all, The conspirators original plan was to surrender to the Western Allies but to continue the fight against Russia. If the war had ended in June-August of 1944, The aftershocks would still be resonating (well more than they already are) For instance, The boundary of the Iron Curtain would have been much further to the East than in actuality. In early 1944, the German Army was still deep in Russia. An end to the war at this point would possibly have caused a weaker Soviet Union. It is also possible that Stalin would have pushed for more territory for Russia as "payment" for her part in the war and the casualties she endured. As it is impossible to predict accurately what would have happened, my best bet is that the Soviet Union would not have survived as long as it did and that other countries such as: China, North Korea, and North Vietnam would not have been able to maintain a communist form of government with out Russia's support.

    Anyway,

    Thats my rant for the day :D

    Calvin
     
  15. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    That's arguable. I don't think the Soviets were going to accept a German surrender without Poland. Additionally the Western Allies had pledged with the USSR that no one would accept a separate peace, and the conspirators certainly wasn't going to be happy to learn that full occupation and war crime trials were in the making.
     
  16. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    What Triple C said.


    Welcome aboard!
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    I guess the Teheran conference and its decisions would rule here. I suppose the Iron curtain would still be quite far in the west:

    One of Roosevelt and Churchill's main concessions concerned post-war Poland. Stalin wished for an area in the Eastern part of Poland to be added to the USSR, and for the border to be lengthened elsewhere in the country. Roosevelt and Churchill agreed to this demand, and Poland’s borders were declared to lie along the Oder and Neisse rivers and the Curzon line, despite protests of the Polish government-in-exile in London. Churchill and Roosevelt also consented to the USSR setting up puppet communist governments in Poland, Czechoslovakia, the Baltic states, Romania, and other Eastern European countries.

    Tehran Conference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  18. vakarr

    vakarr Member

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    As the war neared its end, many German generals/leaders tried to surrender to the western allies on condition that the war in the east continued and all such suggestions were refused. The conspirators did have their alternaive leadership worked out. They sent out he orders to take over Germany but they were blocked at the telephone exchange (if the film Valkyrie is to be believed) but if Hitler had been killed then perhaps those orders might have got through and you would have had a civil war between the army and the nazis and SS. I tend to think that Goering, who was Hitler's designated successor, would have sided with the nazis and SS to begin with and some sort of power struggle within that group would have happended if they had succeeded. The army was able to arrest the SS in Paris so its possible the revolt could have succeeded elsewhere. Surrender was only an option for the army faction, for the Nazis it was victory or death. All modern coup leaders have learnt an important lesson from the July 20 plot - one of the most important things you ned to do is take over the media, especially the radio and TV stations!
     
  19. STURMTRUPPEN

    STURMTRUPPEN Member

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    If Hitler Had Died In That Bomb Blast
    Then His Death Woulds Have Pushed Germany Closer To Surrender Months Earlier Than Planned
     
  20. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Why the need to capitalize the first letter of every word?
     

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