Hitler moves South

With the leaders of Hitler’s three armed forces all reluctant to attack Great Britain Hitler decides to assist his ally Mussolini in the South and knock Britain out of the war by other means.
Pressure will still be applied to Franco to enter the war and the invasion of the Soviet Union will still be in mind for 1941.
In July 1940 German and Italian forces seize Malta.
Meanwhile a build up of German aircraft and 4 Panzer divisions begins in Libya.
In late August Rommel invades Egypt.
His advance is rapid.
By September with further supplies and Axis air superiority his advance is unstoppable.
Any thoughts Mussolini had of invading Greece and Italy are now put aside as he sets his sights on building his East African Empire.
By December his forces have reached the Suez Canal.
At this point a mainly Italian force with some German units and German air support it to strike south along the Sudanese coast to link up with the Italian forces in East Africa while the main force is to invade Palestine.
January 1941 the invasion of Palestine and the Transjordan begin.
By March the area has been occupied in the Sudan Axis forces have linked up with Italian East Africa but their supplies coming under heavy air attack and they are struggling to hold the British back in Southern Abyssinia.
At this point with the lure of gaining Cyprus which has been largely stripped of all British military forces but is still in British the Greeks join the Axis.
With a rising against the British in Iraq led by Rashid Ali and the quick German intervention of Airpower and Paratroops not to mention Axis backed Greece with it's territorial claims on Istanbul the Turks enter the war on the Axis side.
Between March and May Turkish, Italian and German forces over run Iraq with only Kuwait still holding out.
The British also decide to occupy Persia which results in heavy fighting and the Persians joining the Axis.
Meanwhile German and Italian mountain troops, some armour and aircraft are dispatched to Eastern Turkey.

May 15th 1941 the Invasion of the USSR begins.
The invasion is split into 5 Army groups Far North, North, Centre, South and Anatolian.
Compared to our time line Army group South is assisted by the Greek armed forces and the troops that where used to occupy the Balkans in our time line.
The Italians send a slightly larger amount of troops and equipment to Army group south but the main Italian forces are to be used in the Middle East and Anatolia.
The Turkish armed forces are split between Rommel and army group Anatolia.

Could this now be enough to win the Axis powers the war in the East?

 

The biggest problem I can see with this is the fact of the infrastructure situation in the Middle East. Mostly unbuilt roads unsuitable for the amount of military traffic you are proposing could cause serious problems in terms of supply, as well as any allied vessels operating in the med, this however could be made easier with the Fall of Malta. Although Vessels could still be brought up the Suez for a short time.

I still find it hard to believe that Hitler will give more supplies then he did historically to the Africa Corp, so my troops simply mean more troops doing nothing. So I don't believe the advance will be as fast as you expect, British strength in the Africa, was certainly enough to halt Rommel Historically even with the Italians help.

So I don't think this series of events is possible, only plausible.

 

The current infrastructure can support 4 Panzer divisions.
Also once Malta and Suez are captured the Eastern Med will be free of Royal Navy ships allowing alot of Axis supplies to be taken to Egypt and later Palestine by ship.

 

With the lure of a another front against the Soviets Hitler will be keen to give more supplies.
He also has much more time between intervention in North Africa and the invasion of the USSR to do so.
The advance will be quicker as the attack on Egypt is earlier with more men and material plus much greater air power and supply.

 

Im a bit confused as to why Greece and Turkey would join the Axis? Why would Turkey join the Axis instead of fighting against them when threatened?

Why would the Greeks join the Axis?

Germany had logistical problems with a straight supply line from Germany to Russia. Why would supply line(s) across the Mediterranean, through Africa, and Asia NOT cause problems?

How would the Germans deal with mountainous terrain of Turkey and Persia?

 

Greece will join because they will get Cyprus.
After that they will eye their historic claim to Instanbul.
Which will threaten Turkey who will enter the war to avoid ending up in w worse possition.
Besides Turkey will make gains in Iraq and the Caucasus.
The Germans will use their Apline troops and Italys in the Caucasus mountains not to mention the Turks too.
Large scale logistical support will of course be a problem but that will go for the British too.

 

Something tells me that Greece wont just join the bad guys simply because Hitler would promise Cyprus, besides AH, didnt exactly have a good track record when it came to keeping his promises.

So if Turkey joins the Axis then Cyprus wont fall into Greece's hands? Isnt that the main reason for Greece entering the war on the Axis side in this scenario? If Cyprus is given to the Greeks, then why would Turkey ally herself with the side responsible for seizing her land?

Historically, Turkey, sided with Germany in the past and it cost her, her empire. She did not want to make the same mistake, nor had the troops and equipment to commit to such a conflict. Turkey also did not want to go to war with Russia. Allying herself with Germany would mean just that.... Turkey wanted no part of it.

And how many of these troops do you think Germany and Italy had? Aside from their mechanized infantry (mules) how else would they be supported when coming up against T-34's?

From a logistical view, the Germany-Russia supply line was a slight problem... A supply line across the Mediterranean then Africa and Asia not to mention the mountains is simply a nightmare at the very best.

The British would not suffer from the German supply lines.

 

The Brits had a fine logistical line, well established and some material could even be made "in house". The British areas of the Levant were oil producers (small levels), and they had the only refinery in the area of any worth not in Soviet hands. They produced their own smokeless powder, bullets, and brass in the area (Egypt and Persia). The Nile area was still a grain producer, and the Egyptian and Turkish cotton was a major "good thing" for the Brits, but hard for the Axis to take over and gain anything from.

The whole idea is a non-starter as an option for the Germans, too costly for the gains.

 

Greece was very close to Germany anyway so it is likely.

?

No Greece will get Cyprus and the Turks seeing this may worry that Istanbul is next (long standing Greek claim).
Greece was basically a Fascist state as it was and close to Germany with the offer of Cyprus I doubt they would resist.

Enough to support the Turkish army.
The Stuka's will provide the anti-armour roll when the mounatins are crossed.

Supplies can come by ship through the Med or Black sea or by rail from Germany to Turkey.

Eh!
The British will have their own logistic moving supplies a distance from Britain to Kuiwait/Persian Front.

 

The idea is easly acheived.
4 Panzer divisions could have been supplied and that would be enough to beat the British.
Air superiority is already beyound doubt.

 

How do you expect the Germans to actually be able to supply there troops any more then they could historically? Why would Hitler allocate more troops and supplies to Africa then he did historically?

Could you answer these questions as well as the other members with actual possible answers instead of 'Just Because"?

 

Where are they flying from and how are you getting the fuel there?

I suggest you take a look at how much shipping is available and what the capacity of the rail lines in that area were.

 

Turkey and the oil will be a short journey from Romania.

I have now I suggest you do the same.

 

Lets not get back into this. The statement I made not just now, but before this thread was approved still applies here, make sure your answers and this what if is well thought out and possible, not one of those "because I say so threads", it is very close to being closed, for the reasons I gave you before you started.

Pick the game up, this is not to be a forum filled with dribble, but information we can actually learn from by discussing what did happen and what could have happened, enough with the one liners and provide proper well thought out explanations, this will be the last time I say it.

 

Getting the oil to Turkey is only a small part of the problem. Getting it to the fields in Eastern Turkey is another matter. Indeed are there any there?

Then how about telling us what you've found?

 

As they wont be many armoured units in the Axis force in Eastern Turkey fuel will be less of a problem.
Fueling the aircraft will require some land movement East from the nearest rail link in Northern Syria.
An easier route would be along the Black sea coast of Northern Turkey depending on what range you wish the aircraft to have.

 

Armoured units are not the only units that use fuel, yes the largest consumers but by far the only ones. Infantry units with SP guns attached, towed guns, motor bikes, planes, the various amounts of HQ vehicles, supporting mobile artillery, the various other supporting vehicles in a division and even the very supply trucks themselves. So they would still require a certain amount of fuel to be transported.

 

The demand by ground forces would be much less than North Africa
The biggest demand would be from aircraft and then it depends the amount of movement east you wish to give the aircraft.

If you read the The Hitler Options options by Kenath Macksey two of the contributers give a detailed list of units that could be supplied through Turkey and North Africa with available logistics capacity.

 

That's not at all clear. If your rail head is in Nothern Syria which by the way is French then you are going to have to run a supply line through mountainous terreign on marginal roads. The consumption of your supply vehicles alone is going to be pretty significant. If you are forward basing your planes which you need to do if that's going to be your AT systems of choice then you are going to have to build airfields as well. Are you doing this by hand or sending earth moving equipment? In any case it's not going to be fast and it's going to consume signficant resources. Of course you are not going to be moving through the mountains very fast in any case as the Soviets will defend there and historically they did well in such terrein.

That's nice. I don't have that book however and I suspect many of the readers of this forum also don't have it. So if you could quote the relevant protions ....