Hitler's Diplomacy

This is kinda a goofy what if:

Hitler and the Japanese had promised to co-operate in the wars. When the Germans invaded Russia, the expectation was that Japan would declare war (If not invade themselves) as well. This didn't happen.

On DEC 7, Japan attacks USA (and others).
On DEC 8, USA declares war on Japan.
On DEC 9, Germany declares war on USA.

Japan still doesn't declare war on Russia, and now Germany has to fight the two largest industrialized nations, both at the same time!

But what if:
Germany takes stock of the situation and declares war on japan! Propaganda wise, Hitler has FDR in a deep, dark hole. If Germany makes overtures of alliance with USA Vs. Japan (this costs Germany nothing and prevents USA war on Germany), then the whole war in Europe will have an entirely different future!

Imagine the surprise!

Thoughts anyone?

 

The problem witht his scenario is that the U.S. never choose Germany over England.

 

The USA is not just the President, nor the congress, nor all the gov put together. We the PEOPLE would have been heard if FDR attempted to make war on Germany (after Germany just declared war on Japan), after the Japanese attacked us.

I think that if FDR had so much as broached this subject, he would have been lucky too avoid impeachment! And if he did involve us in an unwanted and unnecessary European war, He may even have been removed (Assassinated).

FDR was able to get the Declaration of war against the Japanese, but to attempt to get the American people to go along with a declaration of war on Germany under these conditions would be sure to get him voted out office at the very least!

In spite of his clear knowledge that a unified (Nazi controlled) Europe would be a threat (twice the industrialized population of the USA), getting the common man (whose blood is going to be spilled in the fighting) to go along is not gowning to happen.

Had Hitler declared war on japan, he would have guaranteed his west flank. No Aerial bombardment, No N Africa/Italian landings, No D-Day!

 

The US was already at war in all but name with Germany. They were extensively supplying the British and everyone knew it. It is difficult to see, expect with that hindsight 20-20 vision, why Hitler would have declared war on a country that that had just declared war on one of his biggest enemies. Hitler was quite happy to finally be able to take a proper swing at an enemy that had been such a thorn in his side for so long already.

 

I do not see Hitler doing anything like that. Too many things happening for both Germany or Japan to abandon the other. Even if Hitler had denounced Japan, it would only delay the inevitable, and made the exchange of technology and equipment between them more difficult, if not impossible. The only good thing that could happen for Germany would be that the U.S. attacks Japan's assets first and delays D-day a year or two.

 

'Nippon-Soviet Pact'...instead of 'Nazi-Soviet Pact'.

This is on a correspondence ww2 game site miller systems, one of their articles.
Russia was never a member of the 'Grand Alliance' the 'Allies'. That's why even while we were at war with Japan, Russia wasn't.

Now IF Germany is at war with Russia,
and Germany is at war with Japan,
then Stalin has a war-winning opportunity. He can't ally himself with Japan, that would not only stop his much appreciated if not needed foreign aid let alone put him at war with the Americans...BUT, he can do the same thing he did with Germany, declare a support and trading pact.
Eventhough Stalin was not allied to Hitler against us during the Nazi-Soviet Pact, they were trading not only resources, food, oil, metals etc, but weapons and technology too.
Russia could have such a pact with Japan without having to go to war with Japan's enemies. The best of both worlds.

Japan would jump at the chance to be able to release her armed forces watching and defending against the Soviet Union and Russia would jump at the chance to do the same.
Literally millions of troops, tanks, artillery and planes could be released by both sides against their separate foes.

More Siberian Transfer armies would hit the German front. More Japanese Kwantung etc armies would either overwhelm the Pacific islands or even march on China's capital or into India. Wherever, both sides would love the opportunity to cover eachother's backs rather than guard eachother's fronts.

During the Nazi-Soviet Pact the Germans were supposed to give the Russians plane, Uboat, even ship designs as well as start on techonologies. The Russians felt the Germans had nothing to teach them in tanks. The arrogant Germans felt they could benefit from only resources from Russia. Unlike the First World War, as long as the Nazi-Soviet Pact held, Hitler was not wanting for oil or anything. The British blockade, so effective in the First World War, was undermined by Stalin. Stalin may not have declared war on the British, but he was helping Hitler fight us.

During the Falklands war, America was still technically allied to BOTH sides in some ways, still selling weapons and materials to both sides.

Proposition.
Germany is at war with both Russia and Japan...Nippon-Soviet Pact.
Russia can satisify some of Japan's needs by trade and vs/vs. Even if the Americans threaten to stop lend-lease if they trade Zeros for T34s, just the fact of being able to release their Siberian armies facing eachother could be enough to finish off Germany and possibly even give Japan China or stop us in the Pacific.

How about that?

What would be REALLY interesting is if Stalin got his way and like America during the Falklands war, was able trade with both sides at once.

Imagine Japanese planes more than tripling Soviet airforce range.
Imagine Russian tanks and artillery even La5 fighters in Japanese hands.

 

Would you please stop shouting? It's so unpleasant.

 

Yes, Balderdasher are you angry?

I must say I find your theory very interesting.

 

Yep, your interesting input doesn't need bold letter

Back to initial what-if, USA was in a "moral" and cold (support, supplies etc) war against Germany from the start.

It is unthinkable USA could trade UK for Germany, it's not only about diplomatics, FDR was guided by moral and ethics. He would never have made such a smelly bargain like the Germano-Sovietic pact was.

Here are some parts of his neutrality speech at the outbreak of WWII :

"My countrymen and my friends, tonight my single duty is to speak to the whole of America. Until 4.30 o'clock this morning I had hoped against hope that some miracle would prevent a devastating war in Europe and bring to an end the invasion of Poland by Germany. (...)

It is right to point out that the unfortunate events of recent years have, without question, been based on the use of force or the threat of force.
(...)

You must master at the outset a simple but unalterable fact... When peace has been broken anywhere the peace of all countries everywhere is in danger. It is easy for you and for me to shrug our shoulders and say that conflicts taking place thousands of miles from the continent of the US and indeed thousands of miles from the whole American hemisphere do not seriously affect the Americas and that all the United States had to do is ignore them and go about its own business.

Passionately though we may desire detachment we are forced to realise that every word that come through the air, every ship that sails the sea, every battle that is fought, does affect the American future.

Let no man or woman thoughtlessly or falsely talk of America sending its armies to European fields. At this moment there is being prepared a proclamation of American neutrality...

This nation will remain a neutral nation. But I cannot ask that every American remain neutral in thought as well.

Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts. Even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience. I have said not once, but many times that I have seen war and that I hate war.
(...)"

 

This Soviet-Nipponese pact would be avoided as Germany delares war on Japan (by a secret German-Nippones agreement) but in name only and has no desire to have any conflict with Japan (infact no German and Japanese forces ever meet, actually the German declaration of war on Japan could work for both Japan and Germany as it forces the western allies to choose, it is like either sleeping with your sister or your mother both disagreeable but which one less tolerable.

I'll add more later.

 

A very interesting scenario and one that gives the illusion of throwing of the balance of power. In 1941, Germany had already invaded France and was at war with Great Britain. The US was supplying Britain with logistical and military support. By Germany declaring war on Japan along with the US and Britain, it did not change the course in the European war. Hitler's declaration of war would be in name only because how was he going to contribute to the fight against Japan? Much in the same way as Mexico declaring war on Germany. Very little military effect.

Now, this would make it difficult for Roosevelt to declare war on Germany since there was no reason to. But, sooner or later there would have been a Lusitania incident and the US would have its reason to declare war on Germany. Hitler knew the US was provided protection for convoys destined to Britain and his patience would have worn thin to the point that he might even allow the U-boats to attack such US protection.

In the end, nothing much would have changed.