The spin continues on the issue of the holocaust. The number of victims, the intention of the perpitrators, and the ideology of the nazi reigm that are evident and irrefutable are denied. So the spreading of dis information in regard to this well documented and witnessed event must have an agenda at it's base. What do these deniers hope to achieve? Is the need to vilify the Jewish community ongoing racism or do the deniers have factual evidence that the event was overstated and misrepresented. I have seen the numbers of a census taken pre WWII and three years post WWII where the Jews of Europe are shown to have grown, why do the intelligencia and christian clergy champion this dis information. Is it for effect or is it simply for a point of difference that will bring them personal recognition, good or bad. I have first hand eye witness accounts from the perpitrators of the containment, transport and murder of civilians on a massive scale on the Eastern Front. Not individual actions but two years of planned and executed pograms against Jews. The Ukrainians, Latvians, Hungarians and Croatians contributed in no small part to the production line slaughter of these innocents. Many of these perpitrators went on to man the extermination camps that formed the backbone of the second stage of the Final Solution. As for my ancestors from the Ukraine who participated in these events there is no denial in their minds when amongst their peers even though the admission of guilt is not forthcoming in general. Many Ukraines who participated in the actions against the civillians during 1941 to 1943 later went on to fight the Germans and the Russians with the Ukraine Nationalists and their actions in the murders are conveniently forgotten. These people justify the treatment of the Jews with counter arguements based on the millions of Ukrainians starved to death over a three year year period by Stalins collectivization of rural lands. This event did happen, it was horrendous but like the Jews of Israel at present selective memory and lessons of man's inhumanity to man have left no compunction to extend humanitarian ideals to their perceived foe. The link below is sadly in regard to an Aussie girl who has got more chardonay in the attic than brain cells. Lady Michele Renouf: mistress of reinvention | The Australian
Son; This lady is not building nuclear weapons like the Holocaust deniers in Iran; Iran Holocaust Denial--Rewriting history to suit their political ends - Home So why would any otherwise reasonable person want to blot out what is an historical fact? Well usually because it does not fit in with some political agenda. People will do the most whacked out things for political agendas. I would hope that my government is covertly shipping the very best in anti missile technology and radiation detection to Israel right now. JeffinMNUSA PS. "To what end" you ask? Well quite possibly a "Holocaust Part 2". Maybe we should be shipping the Israelis the very best in nuclear bunker busters also.
Most, if not all, Holocaust deniers are from the Middle East; Remember that most Arab nations were allies of Hitler; the Bath Party of Iraq is modeled after the Nazi party of the Third Reich. Arab units were used by Hitler during WWII. The Mufti of Iraq was all for the "Final Solution" of the Jews. The Mufti was even given an SS generals rank! Denying the Holocaust strengthens (they think) their case that they were "invaded" rather than just refugees coming to seek shelter in British Palestine. Their "Palestinian Homeland" was taken over in their eyes, and they have the right and duty to throw them back into the sea. So denying the Holocaust is just an excuse to follow their religion, islam, which basically directs them to convert the infidels or kill them. Of course, there is no historic "Palestinian people" let alone a nation. It is a term coined by the British. Palestinians are a hodge-podge of various Arab nations who went to Israel because 1) that's were the jobs were, and 2) the Jews had made the desert bloom with agriculture through hard work and irrigation. Yassir Arafat was an Egyptian, not a Palestinian. No Arab really wanted the land of Israel before the Jews came back in large numbers; it was a barren waste (see Mark Twain for details).
Tex absolutely correct, although this thought process coming from the Arabs is no surprise. It is the exampled upper class and academic that dribble out this biased and uninformed arguement that interests me. Their motives, their sought outcomes are what puzzles me. As I have alluded I have had life long interactions with the men who conducted the mechanics of the final solution ( only one left alive out of a dozen or so ) the other old men died peacefully of old age after being instrumental in the deaths of millions between them. Having this first hand verbal history conveyed to me through out my life gives me concrete knowledge of the operation of extermination conducted between 1941 and 1945 by the nazi's and the locally recruited police forces. Other research with Jewish holocaust survivors (who usually have a history of multiple moves within the concentration camp system and a shitload of luck) made evident to me the primary role that a large contingent of Jewish collaboraters had, from the staging areas in towns and cities to the administration of the killing factories. One can only ponder as to the extent verse time outcome of the holocaust if these morally corrupt individuals did not agree to aid and abett in the obviously dis engeneous resettlement programs. Tex Arabs and Jews are both Semitic peoples, their cousins in fact, and as clicky and tribal as each other. Sure the Arabs historically hate the Jews, but the Shiites hate the Sunnys just as much if the physical expression of that hate is anything to go by. Islam is being held back from reformation because their culture does not allow them to move forward with the centuries. Seventh century social morays do not transplant to 21st century society. Tex I don't know why we are prattling on about the modern history of the M East but why not. All you say is true and the only way to get the Local Arabs off the Jews backs is to make Palestine bloom to the same extent as Israel. If the U.N. had mandated a "Marshall Plan" type aid package to the Arabs of Palestine the coveting aspect of the fuel that fires the shit fight might have evaporated so the intensity of disenfranchisement would be diminshed in the wider Arab civillian population. Exactly right, but they covert it now. Anyway back to my point what do you thing the motivating factors for denial from the examples I gave the white christian or academic denier.
Sorry but... What!??? Might I respectfully suggest a visit to Nizkor to brush up on the history, personalities, and motivating forces of 'the denialist movement': Nizkor - Holocaust Educational Resource Much sensible & serious stuff on there relating to the subject, many of the more spurious & politicised points of view refuted, with a primary interest in clarity. Modern politicised obfuscation relating to current conflicts muddies the waters, it's exactly the kind of stuff the IHR love to stir up. Cheers, Adam.
J quite right J holocaust denial comes with the territory for the Arabs and the dis crediting of the Jews in regard to the holocaust in Arab societies is about as important to the cause of Arab anti Jewish propaganda as would the shipping of ice cubes to the arctic be to the Eskimo, they have enough ice at home to do the job. I can't say what they are thinking in Iran or Saudi Arabia for that matter, with Arabs the rhetoric is big, like the old Soviet block (I love Nikita's line to John F, "we will bury you") but the spin on Iran has been huge. All I can say is that the last stouche Iran was in was long bloody and local, with Sadam. Friend then enemy now, who could pick it. I am pretty sure that if Isreal gets nuked the Arabs will get hammered immediately. Fifteen minute flight time is all Isreali missiles need, and they can both start from scratch again.
Sonofgloin, I think you are mixing two very different issues. Yes, there is anti-Semitism among the Arabs, of which a part is Holocaust denial. However, I think the overriding issue in the Middle East is more political and social. When Israel was established in 1948, the intent of the Israeli government was to be a home to all who lived there. The Arab population was encouraged to leave by the leaders of the surrounding Arab countries. Unfortunately, these governments were not interested in absorbing these refugees, so they put them in camps on the theory that Israel would be wiped off the map by the Arab armies and the refugees could then go back to "their" homeland. Economically, the surrounding countries were unable, or unwilling, to provide much for these refugees, so they became hotbeds of anti-Israel sentiment, which was fomented by the other countries. This is where the radicals like Arafat, Hamas, and the others developed. It was less anti-Semitic than anti-Israel The other issue is a political one, where westerners, for reasons more numerous than I can count, want to minimize the Holocaust. Some are in religious communities (like Bishop Williamson), others have fascist tendencies, so it is understandable that they would try to excuse the excesses of the most significant fascist state in history, still others, like white supremacists, use it as a tool to further their own ends. These deniers are able to cherry-pick data to support their agendas. To believe them would require a massive conspiracy that would include American soldiers who liberated camps, Eisenhower who toured them, and thousands of individuals whose testimony has been given. It would also mean ignoring the German records from the period which documented the process. Countries like Iran use the denial process as a means of bostering their political ends. If Ahmedinejad can distract the people of Iran from their economic problems by baiting the Jews, then he will do so. Again, however, I believe that his feelings are more anti-Israel, but denying the Holocaust makes for political and jouranlistic news. He seems to court this kind of press, and world news outlets seem anxious to give it to him.
VP bloody amazing testimony from the Auschwitz Dentist, met Eichman, faced selection from Mengele hung onto part of his family and survived. Survivors all have a similar set of circumstance, luck, a skill, and internment into the camp system before ghetoization.
Not I, Irusso I was bleating on about the deniers of western origin and Tex66 somehow brought Palestine into it via the back door with an observation that the SS made an Arab leader a card carrying member, and I was addressing his points.
The 'Grand Mufti', is a very minor character in WW2 History, one who's been picked up by those with a modern anti-Islamic agenda and greatly inflated purely on the basis of a few photos and very thin contacts between him & Himmler. Smoke and mirrors. The agenda with Ali and the Golden Square of Iraq was hardly any sort of primarily Islamic one anyway, far more one of anti-Imperialism aimed at the British after a rather shaky coup. Any old port in a storm style they'd have taken support wherever they could get it, & there is little analogous with modern fundamentalism there, no matter how certain quarters wish to present it. It's even less to do with modern holocaust denial outside of propaganda. I could source many pictures of Christians, Hindus, etc. giving the Nazi salute - it proves almost nothing. If you really want to see an Islamic contribution to WW2, try looking to the tens of thousands that served in the Indian Army on the allied side. Though naturally they don't conveniently fit the agenda and I'm sure you'd be much happier focusing on the rather freakish Mufti & Handschar. Bad history extracts only what's convenient from the record. Very bad history extracts only what's politically convenient. Cheers, Adam.
