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How Germany could've won?

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by Jborgen, May 5, 2011.

  1. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    [video=youtube;-gb0mxcpPOU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU[/video]

    Just saying like...

    ~A
     
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  2. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    Just goes to show that with the right soundtrack almost any strategy can work:)
     
  3. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude

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    Mein fuhrer, I can valk!!!!
     
  4. Gunney

    Gunney Member

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    thanks for the link LRusso216, my knowledge on the A-Bomb has now increased
     
  5. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    Glad I could help. It's always good to expand your knowledge.
     
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  6. chris the cheese

    chris the cheese Member

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    I think that taking Mein Kampf as some kind of doctrine or manifesto of what Hitler would, or would not, do once in power is a touch naive. Anyway, it demands that historians reject structural factors that drove German policy in the 1930s and demands that we believe all German foreign policy was some form of intentional grand master plan Hitler had devised years earlier. I don't buy it.

    Why would Hitler have to have worried about the USA in 1939? Indeed the USA was brought into the war when Germany, rather foolishly, declared war on her.

    As for fighting a long term war of economic attrition against the British Empire and France. You are correct, that would have been, at best, unwise. As an economic superpowers both were vast.
     
  7. Jager

    Jager Member

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    Time was not against Hitler. He got cocky and carried away at how easy it was for him to gain territory. He gambled and thought that if he staged a fake attack against his forces then he could get away with invading poland without provoking the allies. It backfired and the war started. Hitler was a gambler and he eventually ran out of luck. Germany went to war when its air force was the only thing ready. the navy and army was not due for completion until 1942-44. Many think that Germany had no chance against the USSR but Germany has fought against russia several times in history and has won despite being outnumbered. In fact Germany beat russia in the first world war despite fighting on multiple fronts and being outnumbered. (Many say the only reasons the russians signed peace is cause of the revolution but actually russia failed at Tannenbaum, Masurian lake, several times under the czars control, Kerenskys republic failed, and the bolsheviks attemped a last offensive that also failed and resulted in a surrender) The germans had a very real fighting chance against the USSR. Not to say that the germans without a doubt could win but it was a possibility.
     
  8. scipio

    scipio Member

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    Just for the record, Germany was the hotbed of nuclear scientific achievement in the 1920's of which Einstein was only one of many contributors (and in terms of the bomb - not very important). Many were Jews such as Teller (although Hungarian). There is no doubt that without these scientists creation of the bomb would have been impossible to seriously delayed. The USA at that time had little involvement in nuclear science and even Oppenheimer (American Jew) did all his initial research in Germany.


    However, for the Germans to make these guys work on the Bomb might have been something else. Max Planck , (quantum theory), who stayed in Germany refused to collaborate - his son was executed by the Nazis. Only Heisenburg co-operated (even here some argue he just made a show of it).
     
  9. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The execution of the son of Planck was not because his father refused to collaborate,but,because he (the son) was involved in the conspiracy of the 20 july.
    Max Planck was already 75 in 1933,thus his role would be insignifiant;I am not a phycisian,but I doubt that the quantumtheory was related to the A Bomb.
    Last point :you are overestimating the importance of all these people:the principles of the ABomb were well lnown,and,with or without these scientists,the Germans never could have the ABomb :they hat not the raw materials,the engineers,the factories,the money,.......
     
  10. scipio

    scipio Member

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    Max Born - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Actually I do have a degree in chemistry with physics. I can assure you that without a knowledge of quantum theory you have\had no chance of developing the Bomb.

    Wiki piece on Max Born (above) reads like a roll of honour of nuclear scientists. But there are several more and mostly German such as Schrodinger.


    There is also a good link in Wiki called the Manhattan Project. Without these scientists - several of whom (together with Chadwick, Thompson and Born - Denmark) who initially came to the UK, there was no little chance of developing the bomb.


    The Germans did not have these physicists because of Hitler's policies - they all left as did many chemists (from IG Farben - full of Jewish scientists).

    I have not thought about raw material but really you do not need much; as for energy there is plenty in Norway; German engineers were superb and when did money ever bother Hitler?
     
  11. scipio

    scipio Member

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    BTW - having just read the Max Born piece myself I notice than Olivia Newton-John and Ben Elton (british comedian) are both descended from this eminent scientist.
     
  12. scipio

    scipio Member

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    http://www.unmuseum.org/nbomb.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_energy_project

    I suspect that you have already had a debate on the German Nuclear Bomb - if not the articles above might be useful.

    The beauty of this site is that it makes you check up on your facts.

    I confess I didn't realise that the recognition of uranium as a good source of fission material was as late as 1939 and in GERMANY.

    BTW Lise Meitner and her cousin, Frisch, who fled Germany (and had been informed of the possibilities of Uranium) were both Jews. Certainly Lise had studied under Max Born - not sure about Frisch.

    First article seems to imply that Heisenberg totally miscalculated the quantity of Ur needed to make a bomb explode - absolutely inconceivable for a man who was immersed in quantum mechanics.

    Oh and it seems Germany had lots of waste Uranium - everything to hand to make a bomb .
     
  13. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The Manhattan project costed 20 billion dollars and it lasted 3 years .
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    So...
    For Nazi Germany to achieve nuclear dominance, they'd have had to drop their anti-Jewish 'principles' (along with scoring up the staggering amount of cash LJ mentions).
    In which case they wouldn't be Nazi Germany at all.

    Racial theory was absolutely 100% inherent to the ideology, not just some bolt-on facet that could be removed.

    Another what-if becomes too far-fetched for credibility.
    You can't have Hitlerian Nazism without Anti-semitism - any State that allowed Jewish scientists to practice safely is so far removed from what Adolf built that it immediately becomes a fantasy, as unlikely as the UFO & Rocket-powered Iceland brigade's musings.
    Maybe this new political form wouldn't even have gone around invading people in the first place...

    Fluffy Hitler, the Uranium man.

    ~A
     
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  15. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    More like $2 billion in 1940s money, but still more than Germany had to spare.
     
  16. scipio

    scipio Member

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    Well of course it was never going to happen. He needed the scientists and Hitler was just too anti-Jewish to keep them.


    Bosch, Chairman of IG Farben, in 1933 at the end of the only meeting with Hitler and having secured a huge contract plus Hitler's thanks, tried to persuade him that there were Good Jews and Bad Jews.

    Bosch had hoped to keep the "good Jews" working for Germany - Hitler immediately showed him the door and they never met again.

    I don't know how much the German 4 year plan cost but it must have been enormous and 75% went to IG Farben with a good percentage spent on synthetic oil production.


    If Hitler had wanted to spend the money on nuclear bombs, here was a good place to find it.
     
  17. scipio

    scipio Member

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    Just thinking this through and accepting that Von Poop's block buster is the Allied Nuclear bomb what every Hitler does then -


    If Hitler in 1933 had at least prevented his German Jewish scientists emigrating in 1933, and after, he had a very good chance of stopping or at least seriously delaying the Manhattan project.


    However, being an artist and oil and steel man, he did not realise the nuclear cards that he had.
     
  18. Jager

    Jager Member

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    Chances are that if Germany had obtained nuclear capabilities then it would have been extremely different from the American bomb. Germany did not have a capable long range bomber and never placed high emphasis on strategic bombing. the HE-11 and JU-88 were converted airliners and not so good bombers compared to american standards. Maybe the Blitz bomber but thats about it. Your looking at a long range missile, heavy artillery projectile, or perhaps a remote bomb. ( say a V-2 variation, a V-3 cannon variation, or a bomb on a vehicle chassis with a control system similar to the goliath remote bomb. ) It would of taken the Germans awhile to develop a nuclear weapon. Maybe not the capabilities but a weapon would take some time.
     
  19. Triple C

    Triple C Ace

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    Ever watched the propaganda film The Eternal Jew? The narrator singled out Einstein "the relativistic Jew" for special scorn. (I wonder what was his reaction to the atomic bomb's first field use) The Nazi German scientists researching the A-bomb did not their work seriously, Heisenberg even wrote a report saying he does not believe A-bomb is possible and his chief task is to give decision maker the peace of mind knowing that it was not.
     
  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I beg to differ it very much was. Germany was about to go bankrupt when he siezed Austria and Chekoslavakia whose gold reserves kept would have kept him afloat for a couple more years perhpaps. However after he Chekoslavakia the western powers were rearming at a faster rate than the Germans could and the Soviets were also improving thier position.
    That may be but look where the allies would have been in the same time frame. Time was not Hitler's friend.
     

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