Iósif Stalin tank-series...

Hallo, gentlemen!

I have always been fascinated by these Soviet monsters which had really became a headached for us in the late stages of the war. Would you mind telling me sites, especifications or something about them? And what are your opinions on them?

 

Hello Friedrich! Some sites found:

http://www.battlefield.ru/is2_1.html

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2001/10/stuff_eng_turkalj_js2.htm

On all Russian tanks and pics:

http://wio.boom.ru/tank/ww2tank.htm

http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-equipment-heavy-tanks.htm

Huge tank! 122 mm main gun, a match for Tigers and King Tigers and Panthers for sure.

For myself I have not yet studied the Russian tanks much ecxept for T-34. But JS-2 was probably the most feared tank by the Germans.It seems it was well armored, weighed 47 tons which brings manouverability, and a weapon that can penetrate the German tanks.

 

WOW! Thanks, Kai! Awesome weapons, awesome sites!!!

 

Some facts from a ww2 hardware book-

Designation: IS-2
Type: Heavy Tank
Length: 8.32m
Width: 3.09m
Height: 2.73m
Weight: 46k kg
Crew: 4
Main Armament: 122mm
Secondary Armament: 4 x 7.62mm
Engine: V-2-IS V-12 Diesel 600hp
Range: 240km
Speed: 37kph
Armor: 122mm
Turret Armor: 132mm

The IS-2 first appeared in early '44, and was an off-shoot of the KV series. An armor piercing round would pierce 185mm at 1000m. The size of the weapon required a separate loading of projectile and charge, which contributed to a slow rate of fire. These tanks remained in production some time after the war.

 

OK, a couple things...

First, on the IS-2... It did have one major drawback, (LATER- sorry, dasreich- I didn't notice that you went into this... my bad!)- the 122mm gun used a charge/projectile system- meaning the actual projectile and the charge to fire it were loaded seperately. Apparently, this was because of the large gun size, and, well, poor planning. This meant that the IS-2 took at least twice as long to re-load as guns using a cartridge system (projectile and charge self-contained in one piece). One of the webpages Kai found notes this problem...
"At this stage, the issue of the JS-2's armament was not completely resolved. The military was not satisfied with its low rate of fire and limited ammunition stowage - only 28 two-piece rounds (compared to the 59 one-piece rounds for the JS-1 and 114 one-piece rounds for the KV-1S). "

And, while the IS-2 was a product of the KV series, don't forget the IS-1 (or IS-85)... many sources argue that the IS-1, while only in production for a short time, was actually the better tank. The 85mm gun was perfectly capable, if not quite as powerful as the 122mm. The armor was nearly the same amounts as the IS-2, and all around it was a very similar tank.

Both these beasts finally gave the russians a heavy tanks that could compete with the germans. Once the IS series entered service, germanys tank advantages basically were gone, with the glaring exception of optics. The "armored playing field" was now more or less even...

Hmmmm action reports? Numbers? I wonder exactly how level the playing field was...

[ 16 September 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

 

Good points gentlemen !

As I was reading a bit on Paul Albert Kausch and his Hermann von Salza Stug/Panzer abteilung just yesterday night very late. Seems even the stug could punch a hole in the Heavy IS-2 from close range.....anyway the SS Schwere SS Panzer Abt. 503 crews have mentioned that in more than one occassion they could get off 2 shots sometimes three before the heavy Stalins could master even one. For the most part in the German accounts I read 1 round of 8.8cm of the Königstiger was more than enough to take out a "Stalin", so there was generally no reply from the Soviet tank. but a mighty presence it was !

E

 

Of one of Kai's sites:

This is a really impressive battle:

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/battles/battle16.html

Actually, I heard that when the IS-3 first enter into action there were big losses of it, because the electrical rotation mechanism of the turret failed and jammed, letting the gun immobilised. But don't know if it's entirely true.

 

If my souces are correct and they maybe not, but Friedrich did the JS-3 ever reach combat status ? I do know that after the fall of Berlin the big boy 3's were put on parade......The Heavy SS Panzer crews make no mention of it, but all they say is Stalin when listing their accounts.

E

 

That's a pretty good question, indeed. Let me check!

Well, Erich is right. The first IS-3s left the factories in mid-May 1945. Pheew!!! It would have been a butchery of Panzers...

[ 16 September 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

 

Just reading the last links story in August of 44 it appears the German Königstiger unit 502 did not have a clue as to how to use their tanks properly. An excellent narrative nonetheless as it is pretty scarce to find any Soviet Tank descriptions/battles anywhere even on the net. Thanks for sharing.

E

 

Indeed, Erich. Quite impressive stories. I though that the quality of the Russian tanks didn't matter that much. You have mentioned how many T-34s were destroyed by just a couple of Panzers in late 1945... But reading tales like that in which our best tanks were so awfully and easily knocked out... That would teach us not to underrate the Red Army...

 

Fridrich,

I´ll find the battle scene soon, but late September or early Ocotber as Guderian was about to move forward with some 50-70 tanks, a group of T-34´s attacked from the side or behind, and knocked 30-40 tanks dead.The Russians had not many losses if even one. The German attack naturally was halted.
This kind of victories were reached through using T-34´s as group, not single tanks here and there. And Russiand always did this, sending tanks and men to check the front and if they got through they would go as far as they could in the back lines...

 

Sorry, Friedrich, did not mean to write your name wrong!

Here´s another site comparing the Russian and German tanks:

http://www.battlefield.ru/is2_3.html

http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/russia/jhjs.htm

http://www.clandavidsonusa.com/wac/afvphotos/russian/russian_armored_fighting_vehicle.htm

Hmmm!!

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram55/rschrijnen.html

JS-3

http://www.sandiego.edu/~cshimp/js3.htm

http://www.battlefield.ru/is3.html

 

Friedrich's sources are correct, I think. From everything I've read, the IS-3 only made it off the assembly line in time to ride in the post-war parades...

And Erich, I'd bet your info on the StuG vs. IS-2 is accurate- one well placed (or lucky!) shot could knock out most tanks. Of course, in a head-to-head confrontation between IS and StuG, I know where I'd put my money!

One of the advantages the german tanks did have throughout the war was optics. German gunsights were FAR better than their russian counterparts. And Erich is right on in his assessment of the 88... The 88L71 on the King Tiger could defeat ANY tank of the day. And combine this gun wth good optics, and I'd take a King Tiger over an IS-2 any day.

Damn... no time now to read the account Friedrich posted. After my meetings!

 

Kein problem, Kia Preti[I/]!!!

Crazy is right about the optics and the 88... And we can remember the radio thing again, even in 1945 the Soviet tanks were not as well coordinated as the Germans and their crews were not as well trained either... That can make a difference. Beside, as the article says, we cannot comapare the two tanks because one weights 20 tons more than the other!

But we must remember one thing: if the Soviets lost one IS-2 they would build five more. If we lost a King Tiger... ooops!

 

Well, now I got it. It goes with many names, like Mzensk and Kamenowo, but it sure was a changing point in the eastern front as Germans for a moment lost the armor with which to continue their attack with in that direction. Also the Russians used the T-34´s in a group for the first time with great effect, something I would call the red tide later on ( probably other have before me...).

Anyway, here´s something I found on it:

Early October the capture of Moscow seemed more than possbile after the easy victory of Orel.The 2nd Panzergruppe was driving on.Ordered into their path was the 4th Tank Brigade under the command of Colonel Mikhial Katukov.After the reconnaissance elements had located the 4th Panzer Division the Brigade was sent to a wooded area called the Piervyi Voin along the road between Orel and Mzensk.Here they attacked the Germans with great results.

At dawn 7th (?) October the German troops were discovered. The 4th Panzer Division was under the command of Lord van Landermann. As soon as the germans were in range the Russians opened fire. One platoon of T-34´s under lieutenant Kukarin drove with full speed attacking the flank and spread havoc amongst the Pz III´s. Four Pz III´s were quickly knocked out, but after some time Kukarin had to call off the attack due to ammunition shortage. At the same time four T-34´s and three KV-1´s attacked on the right flank. The attack lasted until noon, and ended with Russians withdrawing after knocking out total of 43 German tanks and halftracks. The 4th Tank Brigade losses consisted of only 6 tanks.

Guderian wrote that this engagement was a psychological blow for the German Panzer commanders ;for the first time the Russian tank units had been superior to the reckless German troops both tactically and materially.

The site with map and other details:

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/battles/kamenewo/battle_kamenewo.htm

 

From the reports and books I have read, the Russian IS heavy tanks were just hugh giants. However in combat the 122mm gun was no more effective against armor than the German 75mm L/70 or the 88mm! This was due to its very low velocity gun. However the 122mm was extremely effective against soft targets firing HE rounds!

Its other drawbacks which have been discussed already was its very small ammunition load of only 28 rounds, and slow rate of fire. Compare that with the Panther or Tiger that held 80 rounds or more! and could fire 2-3 rounds for every 1 that the Russian fired!
The armor of the IS tanks was superior to the T34s, but it still could be penetrated by a Tiger or Panther tank! So they really didn't gain anything!
The T34 was much faster, more reliable, in greater numbers, could hold more ammo, and shoot more rapidly.
The final drawback of the IS series was when it was forced into German cities. This tank could not manuver well in cities, and was easily destroyed by infantry weapons (mines, anti-tank guns, panzerfausts, and panzershreiks) in towns.

I feel that the IS series of tanks was some what of a waste for the Russians. They would have been better off making more T34s!

Matt

 

Matt has some valid points, but I do not agree that the IS were a waste for the Russians. First of all, they could afford the luxury of heavy tanks even if they didn't need them urgentely. But when they came out it meant that the German heavy tanks superiority had passed away. You say that Tigers and Panther could knock it out, of course they could! But what if you were in an old Panzer III or a Panzer IV. Perhaps you make a direct and successful hit with your Pak 40, but if you don't, if the thick armour of the IS resists, your Panzer IV's armour is NOT going to resist a hit from the 122 mm gun... These heavy Soviet tanks turned out to be a serious menace for the German armoured units. A tank with the capability of piercing a King Tiger at a long distance is quite a threat!

 

Here´s the test results why 122 mm was chosen.

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/archives/weapons/weapons5.html

 

MP38

There is life after 1945. Although the IS2 wasn't a particularly good tank, it did give the Soviet Union invaluable experience in developing future vehicles, such as the widely produced T55.

Jumbo