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If Germany gained the alliance with Poland it wanted in the mid-1930s

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by GunSlinger86, Jul 16, 2018.

  1. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Goering courted Poland and the major Nazis wanted Poland to sign a peace pact with Germany in the mid-1930s so it could be more leverage against the USSR and a possible future launching point of an invasion with part of that agreement being German troops allowed in Poland. If that happened, because Poland was just as anti-communist and anti-Russian as Germany was, but didn't want to be any one country's underling so it never signed treaty with Germany, and Germany invaded Russia without altercations from the West, would the western countries (US, England, France) have sent arms and supports to the Germans, because Germany was oppressive capitalism, still with free enterprise and private property, which is why they were appeased for so long, and the West hated Communism and the Soviet Union. The US and NATO basically took over Nazis original mission of crushing Communism with the Cold War and its proxy conflicts fighting communism, so if Germany and Russia just went head on, would the Western powers have supported Germany?
     
  2. JJWilson

    JJWilson Well-Known Member

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    I have long thought about the possibility of the Pro-Capitalist and anti-communist nations of Europe, Asia, and North America fighting the 1930's or 40's USSR. If such a pact between Poland and Germany came about (Which is highly unlikely), and a state of war did arise between the two nations (Germany vs. Russia), I think there is a good reason to believe other countries would support Germany, some openly. This in many ways did actually occur during the Siberian Intervention in the Russian civil War (1917-1923). Great Britain, France, the Czech legions, Japan, and the U.S all sent troops in Siberia to support the White forces. This action in many ways began the antagonistic and poisoned relationship between the USSR and the west that would at times, nearly plunge the whole world into war yet again. Despite much support from outside of Russia, the White forces were defeated, had these nations sent more troops and supplies, it might have ended differently, but these were nations recovering from WW1, with populations weary of further fighting and bloodshed, especially outside of their own borders. If we are talking Fascist Germany, than other imperialist and Fascist nations would probably join in the fight, such as Italy, Japan, and Hungary. If certain incentives were presented to other Western nations such as the UK, France, and the U,S, than maybe they would have given support as well. This is all my speculation and opinion, and truthfully, I don't see how a Hitler led Germany would ever reach a pact with Poland.
     
  3. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Check out the book "the Devil's Disciples" which is about the Nazi inner circle. Goering tried to woo the Polish into a pact in 1935-1936 several times with Hitler's support. He had the Polish leader at the Berghof on several occasions to try and get him in on a treaty, but Poland had just gotten out of Russian control after WWI and they didn't want to be under the thumb of Germany as a new nation. Germany looked at it as a way to get an anti-communist, anti-USSR block, and it would allow German troop movements into Poland for an eventually attack that was always planned. The CIA and Eisenhower brought in all former Nazis and SS guys to fight the cold war. Communism was the enemy all along, which is why I don't understand why we just didn't do what Patton wanted and take the fight East after Germany was finished. It would have saved 40 years of the Cold War, the Korean War, Viet Nam, the Afghanistan War, and all the coups and crooked assassinations and operations in the cold war era.
     
  4. JJWilson

    JJWilson Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you are saying GunSlinger, but Goering ultimately was not the decision maker, it was Hitler, and Hitler preferred to invade Poland, rather than work with the majority Jewish, and racially "inferior" Polish race to fight Russia. As for your CIA and Eisenhower bringing in Nazis and SS members, provide me with an example, with sufficient evidence and sourcing. I strongly disagree that "Communism was the enemy all along...", Fascist and Imperialist countries were the real enemies of the Allies, WW2 was not a war against Communism, it was a war against Dictatorships and Autocratic regimes. Germany did not solely Invade the Soviet Union to destroy Communism, it invaded the Soviet Union to eradicate the "Untermensch" Slavic people, and make room for Germanic peoples to live and prosper in. If the Allies decided to attack the Soviet Union directly after WW2, it would have resulted in potentially millions of more lives lost, and most likely nuclear war, which could have ended humanity.
     
  5. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Klaus Barbie for example was working for the CIA. The head of the German Army intelligence on the Eastern Front was hired by the CIA along with his whole crew, his name slips my mind but you can look that up too. Hitler supported Goering's efforts as a way to get to the Soviet Union, but Poland wouldn't go along. I'm not saying that Hitler would have kept to any agreement, but if you do any research, Hitler hated Communism and Jews just as equally. And the British and United States indeed hated Communism. Richard Nixon led the effort in the 1940s and before that J.Edgar Hoover and the Red Scare in the late 20s and 30s.
     
  6. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    Fascism was only the enemy because Hitler couldn't help himself. Appeasement was all about hoping Hitler would just stick to attacking Communist Russia and keeping it at that.
     
  7. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Reinhard Gehlen. His organization worked for the CIA until 1956 when it became the official intelligence agency of West Germany (Bundesnachrichtendienst). Gehlen remained head of it until retiring in 1968.

    Do you have information on the terms of the proposed German-Polish alliance? I assume the published text would be a typical non-aggression, mutual cooperation agreement. Were there going to be secret provisions for a joint attack on Russia, similar to what Ribbentrop and Molotov negotiated with regard to Poland in 1939? Would Poland agree to let German armies move into its territory and make it a base for an invasion of Russia?

    Hitler's basic goal was expansion to the east, primarily at the expense of Russia. It wouldn't have mattered to him if Russia was communist, democratic, Tsarist, or whatever. Being able to present his aggression as an anti-Bolshevik crusade was a bonus.

    Prior to the rise of fascism, communism had been seen as the common enemy of western capitalist nations, even though some of them had substantial communist or socialist parties themselves. One element of Hitler's rise to power was that he was seen and accepted as an alternative to communism, both in Germany and the rest of the world.
     
  8. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Excuse me, but Poland only emerged as a modern state after WW1, after being repressed and possessed by three empires, the third and final partitioning of Poland occurring in 1795 (started in 1772). Those three empires were the Austro-Hungarian, Russia, and Prussia (later Germany). During WW1, all the three belligerent empires fighting on the Eastern front tried to woo Polish nationalists by claiming their interest in creating a Polish state from the ruins of the loosing side.

    Germany would have to dream up some pretty lucrative deal with solid guarantees to gain Polish trust... Given Germany's financial situation, not likely. Given Polish stubborn nationalism, not likely at all; to let German or Russian troops on their soil.
     
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  9. JJWilson

    JJWilson Well-Known Member

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    Alright, I have been proved wrong........I commend you GunSlinger :cool:.
     
  10. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    The basic terms are in the book "the Devil's Disciples" which is greatly cited. It is an inside look at Hitler's inner circle from before WWI through WWII.

    That was my point, that Poland wasn't going to allow itself to be put under any one country again, whether it be Germany or Poland, because both tried. I know part of it was allowing German troops on Polish soil.

    Hitler was still private property, competition, though controlled and guided by his government, similar to how some of the New Deal under FDR functioned. There are many similarities between the New Deal, Mussolini's economy, and Hitler's economic system. Essays and theses have been written about it. Yes, Hitler wanted to expand and he also hated communism, which he tied to his racist anti-Jewish beliefs. The Western capitalist nations hated communism and felt it as a threat, and they tolerated Hitler which is why the West didn't intervene in the Spanish Civil War, and in America those that volunteered on the Communist side were brought in front of the house un-American activities committee and branded traitors.
     
  11. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Rather it was "give peace a chance", it was known Hitler didn't intend to attack Russia, first he would have to attack Poland and that would trigger the Franco-Polish alliance.

    It was clear to me that a conflict with Poland had to come sooner or later. I had already made this decision in the spring, but I thought that I would first turn against the West in a few years, and only after that against the East. But the sequence of these things cannot be fixed. Nor should one close one's eyes to threatening situations. I wanted first of all to establish a tolerable relationship with Poland in order to fight first against the West. But this plan, which appealed to me, could not be executed, as fundamental points had changed. It became clear to me that, in the event of a conflict with the West, Poland would attack us. Poland is striving for access to the sea. The further development appeared after the occupation of the Memel Territory and it became clear to me that in certain circumstances a conflict with Poland might come at an inopportune moment. [...]
    The political objective goes further. A start has been made on the destruction of England's hegemony.
    Hitler’s Speech to the Commanders in Chief (August 22, 1939)


    btw I don't think any Polish leader met with Hitler ever. Hitler didn't offer any anti-Soviet alliance to the Poles either.

     
  12. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    I'll get the book again and cite the pages and the sources to where they came from. It's called "the Devil's Disciples" and in 1935-1937 Goering with Hitler's knowledge did indeed try to gain a pact with the Poles and a Polish leader did go to the Berghof during that time period. If that alliance was gained then He would have had a direct line against Russia. Hitler also didn't want to fight England as he saw them as natural allies, but on a dime would turn and say England was the enemy. The guy was manic and the drugs didn't help spin his mind into changing his decisions like the wind.
     
  13. green slime

    green slime Member

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    The answer is no. Emphatically.

    1) The German-Polish Non-aggression act was signed in January 1934. Pilsudski's attitude toward the treaty at the time of signature was frankly cynical. He believed that the Pact might postpone a day of reckoning between Germany and Poland, but he doubted if it would endure for the ten year period specified in its terms. He believed it could be used to strengthen the diplomatic position of Poland.

    2) The Locarno treaties of 1925: Borders in the East were open for revision.

    3) Franco-Soviet Treaty of Mutual assistance of 1935.

    4) "The 1926 Russo-German Treaty of Friendship followed Locarno, and if offered a basis for the coordination of Russian and German programs of territorial revision at Poland's expense. The Russians had urged an anti-Polish understanding since the economic agreement of 1922 with the Germans at Rapallo. Stresemann gave the Russians an explicit assurance after Locarno that Germany planned to conduct her territorial revision at Poland's expense in close collaboration with the Soviet Union."
    David Hogan The Forced War

    5) Polish Foreign Minister Beck met Hitler in 1935.

    6) Upon Hitler remilitarizing the Rhine, Beck offered to Attack in the East if France attacked in the West.
     
  14. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    It's the basic job of Foreign Ministers to meet foreign leaders. Beck met with Hitler a few times, and with other leaders too.

    There is nothing in the 1926 treaty about "programs of territorial revision". The treaty is mostly just a single sentence "The German Government and the Government of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics will maintain friendly contact in order to promote an understanding with regard to all political and economic questions jointly affecting their two countries."

    Piłsudski actually mostly feared the USSR, only in March 1939 Poland began to work on a plan for defense against invasion from Nazi Germany, earlier all efforts were directed at perfecting the plan for defense against the USSR.
    The Weimar leaders always declared they would try to revise the borders only through peaceful means, Hitler and other Nazi leaders always declared the existing borders were final.
     
  15. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    The Poles hated Russia and Communism more than Nazi Germany up until the Polish corridor dispute
     
  16. green slime

    green slime Member

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    "A Pilsudski-type policy was more to Bochenski's liking, although, like Beck, he lacked Pilsudski's flexible approach. Bochenski argued against a policy of collaboration with either Germany or Russia under any circumstances. He regarded an eventual German attempt to recover both West Prussia and East Upper Silesia as inevitable, and he noted that Studnicki and his pro-German group were as much in fear of German territorial revision as other Poles. War with both Germany and Russia was regarded by Bochenski as inevitable. He predicted that there would be an understanding between Hitler and Stalin, and that the Soviet Union would seek to obtain territorial revision in the West at the expense of Poland. Bochenski's statement that it would be unendurable for his generation of Poles to be dependent on either Germany or Russia was more emotional than factual. It was inconsistent with his numerous attacks on the large numbers of pro-Russian Poles."
    The Forced War
    So much for the sweeping generalizations.
     
  17. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Bochenski seems to have identified the problem accurately, but did he or anyone else have any suggested solutions?
     
  18. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Nothing realistic.

    The reason the Soviets were viewed as a greater threat than Germany, was the existence of the Western Allies; France was seen to be a far greater counterpoint to German belligerence, than Romania was to any Soviet aggression. This did not prevent Polish posturing and intimidation with regards to Danzig in the early 1930s, and the aforementioned willingness to invade Germany upon the militarization of the Rhine, had but France and the UK been willing to take action as well (with an eye to expanding Polish territories westwards) .

    Ultimately, it was all built on a pipe dream; that they could avoid be sucked into the machinations of Germany and the USSR, and maintain their independence. There was no path for them to maintain their independence and freedom of action between the two dictators. Fierce Polish independence guaranteed the dictators would co-operate. The alternative, to become a puppet state of one or the other dictator, wasn't really an option either. They didn't have the economy, and once Germany set about rebuilding it's military, didn't keep pace, either diplomatically or militarily.
     
  19. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Which Bocheński was that? That monk turned philosopher, unknown pre-war?
    He is completely mistaken in the first sentence ("attempt to recover both West Prussia and East Upper Silesia as inevitable") because Hitler demanded only Danzig (with the "superhighway" in tow) and nothing else.
    He plainly and clearly stated a few times that he regarded the rest of the former German territories as lost forever. For Danzig and that thing he was offering 25 years more of the non-aggression pact, and the final recognition of the existing borders.
    So no, it wasn't "inevitable".

    An understanding between Hitler and Stalin happened because Stalin wanted to embroil Germany and the Allies in a destructive war (which hopefully would result in a revolution), and additionally to gain the Baltic States, a part of Poland, a part of Finland, and Bessarabia. All that was spelled out in the secret protocol to the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.
    So it wasn't about Poland only, and wouldn't happen just because of Poland.
    Stalin thought big and wouldn't sign a risky pact for such a limited goal.
    His main goal was a general European war, such a war was the enabler of all the rest.

    Similarly, Hitler wouldn't risk a pact with Stalin for a limited goal of recovering a small German territory (full of Poles to boot, and he had almost a million Poles in Germany already), especially that he gladly gave up on South Tyrol, which was mostly German, and full of perfectly good Germans.
    He actually wrote that in "Mein Kampf" that the Eastern 1914 borders were not worth fighting for.

    Germany and Nazi Germany shouldn't be confused with each other.
    Germany wanted to restore 1914 borders (by peaceful means), Hitler didn't - he had more comprehensive plans.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Just because Hitler said something at one point in time doesn't mean he considered it cast in stone. He was more than willing to lie if it got him what he wanted and then take the rest later.
     
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