If hitler began operation Barbarossa at his initial proposed date

It dosn't matter what timeline they are in they still would have lost in the end anyway they had too may enemys at this time, and the Americans were getting along to being another.

There logistics were not properly prepared to sustain a lengthy war over many miles of land and various countries, her man power was limited by her size as well as her industrial power even with captured factories, her fleet was to small to help in any major role so she was confined strongly(other then raiders) to there docks and her airforce althought strong was lead badly and not properly eqquiped with a lack of heavy bombers and obselote JU87s in my opinion.

 

i think had hitler gone on the right date its probable that he could have defeated russia.

 

The right date being?

Keep in mind that Barbarossa day was also determined by the state of the ground, earlier than what it was and it was considered to be too wet and soft for the panzers, it had to have a dry enough spell to dry.

 

Hitler was taking alot of chances and "Ifs". If the weather stayed good. If they could advance rapidly before winter set in. If the Soviets could be steamrolled by the Blitzkrieg tactics. If the Soviets collapsed like a house of cards. If.....If....If...ect.

 

Per what you say Adolf would have more than enough qualification to be a member of this forum, he would have shone in the What-If section

 

I think the invasion was doomed from the start. No matter if it started earlier or a year later with better equipment. Hitler forgot history's #1 lesson "Never get involved in a Land war in Asia!".

Had the Axis taken Moscow at first it would seem like a victory untill the Russians were able to regroup. Hitler would have suffered the fate of Napolean, Holding a destroyed city with long supply lines and ever increasingly hostile and uncoperative natives. I just don't think Western Europeans understand the vastness that is Russia!?!

Through out the ages every empire from Rome to China has built walls and boundrys knowing the vastness of Asia would only conquer the would be conquerer. Even Holding the "A-A" line is a pipe dream if you can imagine how many divisions it would take even in static possition just to man the line!

The Invasion was a foolish gamble from the beginning and if Hitler had spent more time studying History and less time drawing post cards this disaster could have been avoided.

 

You mean these roads?


And these are modern photos from some parts of Russia, imagine what they looked like 60 years ago during the spring or fall wet seasons!

I would imagine that they would as they have pretty much all been at war with Russia at one time or another, and all have one thing in common.

 

I would imagine that they would as they have pretty much all been at war with Russia at one time or another, and all have one thing in common. [/quote]

Every confilict with Russia with the exception of the Mongol invasion has been on the western or southern fringes of Russia. Even all of western Russia including the moscow district up to the A-A line is about the same size as all of Western Europe.

 

Hehe

And lets not forget that when the Mongols invaded, Russia was not a unified country.

 

Damn your logic and knowledge of Russian history!! LOL

 

Yes he would of and probably would have come up with some more crazy "What Ifs" LOL.

 

Imagine these roads after several panzer divisions had transited them, one absolute logistical nightmare, just re-enforces the fact that Russia circa 1940's roads were glorified goat tracks.

 

Watch it! Don't say D*** too often in the forum!

 

At the outbreak of war, Russia only had something like 3000 miles of paved roads, which is why attacking earlier and hitting the wet season would certainly not hav been helpful.

 

Speed & suprise were absolute essential to breaking the RKKA forces standing on the border in June. If the Wehrmacht stalls for even a week two before it reaches Minsk and Lativia/Riga the effects of suprise are lost and the enemy can reorganize a defense. While the Germans can still break any defense the cost will increase grossly. Between 22 June & the end of August a little over 400,000 Germans were killed or permanetly maimed (from Bailey 'A Century of Fire Power). A organized defense in July may increase that loss to 600,000 or more. Something the Wehrmacht absolutely cant affor. The losses of vehicals is likely to be in the same proportion as well.

 

The Germans had the speed element and Stalin gave them the surprise element. The USSR can thank Zhukov for being there ( unlike Hitler only had yes men around him ) and that Stalin even listened to Zhukov. If Zhukov had sent the new armies straight to the front who knows what would have been left of them, but Stalin and Zhukov decided to sacrifice the front-line armies and create a new defence line in the area of the Old Stalin line.

 

That wasn't there fault, they must have likes where there head was

 

i agree with tomcat...logistically a nation of what???80 million aganst a combine total of 4 to 5 times that amount with equipment...the writting was on the wall..and was only a matter of time...look at Napoleon...he capture Moscow,,,so what...German now has 300,000 troops in a city, another 300,000 to protect it's flanks...how do these 600,000 eat 3 times a day...feed a half bale of fodder to 100,000 horses...to get as far as they did in 1941, they stocked ammunition, planes fuel, for close to a year...in the book panzers east,,even this was a miracle...but with scorched earth, forcing a horse drawn army to carry a bale of hay over 500 miles per horse/mule...the only chance was to construct a railway to supply an army...even this the Germans where switching 20 kilometers of track a day, and constructed 14,000 miles of Rail...even this couldn't supply an army of 250,000 as was at Stalingrad safely or efficiently...was Goering going to fly in supplies for 600,000 troops..dang...his whole Luftwaffe wouldn't have been able to even carry enough fodder for the horses...look at Stalingrad..prior to commensing Hitler wisdom deemed the horses to be moved back i believe 400 miles so feeding,logistics would be easier...well when the tanks went dry in the panzers, who's to pull the guns to form a hedgehog in the city, while Soviets sensing and seeing this started to push???

 

Operation Marita was essential, Italy could not beat the Yugoslavs and the Greeks and were getting their bums smacked and needed rescuing, plus the Germans could not allow the British to establish a foothold in the Balkans, if they had, axis states like Bulgaria might have changed sides with British backing, this could have set in the rot. No Operation Marita was needed.

v.R