Intellegent Theory

Nope, because the OT (and NT) historical events did happen (archeology & 'outside' records - like those of Egypt, Babylon, Assyria or Rome - prove this). The only part that can be dependant on belief are the bits involving God's part in it all.

Besides, the OT was written as the History of the Jews & their relationship with God.

csp asked if they were the same thing.

Your answer was what you considered them to be.
My answer was what their writer considered them to be.

Which is more relevant to how similar they are?

 

Willpower not required, a rational decision that hurting people (in one form or another) is not necessarily a good thing, that "if I help you when you need it, you may help me when I need", and "Do as you would bge done by" can come from logic, or at least thinking about things. The reward is in the here and now.

All of them - parting of the Red Sea, manna, the sun going backwards (or stopping I forget which it was) to name the first three off the top of my head. Proved? Or do they class as having had God onvolved, Moses - Red Sea, and IIRC hime again for the sun.
Also IIRC those historical events that have been proved to have happened (and it's not all of them) happened at different times in different civilisations' calendars, the probability exists that somebody heard it from somebody else who told somebody else and thought "let's stick this in the histories, it'll pad them out a bit", so that's not reliable.
There's one biblical historian currently trying to shift the ancient Egyptians back (or forward, I forget which) by somewhere around 1500 years to get Egyptian records to tie in with biblical ones.

 

I'm sure I've done these before...
I was meaning more things like the Exodus of the Jewish people, etc etc rather than some of the finer details, and these are 'God' things, but...
The 'parting' of the Red Sea has been linked to the Volcano at Santorini going up. It happened at the same time, and would a) provide the pillar of fire & smoke, and b) create a whacking great wave across the Med, which would initially suck the water back from the shore (Israelites run across) then the wave crashes down (Egyptians get caught). The 'wall of water to the right and the left' is the wave approaching the shore. As far as you can see to the right, and as far as you can see to the left, is a wall of water approaching. Nice theory, eh?

The sun stopping - some astronomers were doing their stuff recently, working out where the stars would have been x years ago, how & where they move, etc etc, and worked out that there was actually some 'missing' time (a small amount) which corresponded with the 2 occaisions in the Bible when (essentially) time was stopped.
Edit:
Urban myth, I think. NASA computers apparently did the calcuations, but how can they without a fixed starting point? )

Nope, same time. See below.

I think you are referringto a recent discovery that they had historically got muddled in there ordering of the Pharohes (IIRC from mis-reading somebody's name), and after straightening it out they discovered that the new timeline corresponded nicely with that worked out from biblical sources.

I'll try & find some evidence (at least some links!) to back mme up on my memories here.

Re: Egyptian dates:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rohl

An interesting point about the star of Bethlehem:
http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/Star.html

 

Actually , there are more than 40 civilizations that tell of a big flood , from christainanity to native americans , what about Noahs Ark that is supposedly on mount ararat(i think that's how it's spelled) in turkey.

 

Well then. Religion not required.

I used to argue that the events of the Bible were wildly unlikely, but the historical events did in fact happen even if that says absolutely nothing of the involvement of any god or gods. There are however still a few things that simply can't have happened, such as noise breaking walls down without amplifiers, or people gaining strength from hair. These are clearly just legends based on more or less true events (such as the siege of Jericho). Or the whole Adam & Eve thing, but we went through that already.

 

I've been googling and there's at least one site contradicting each site that claims something:
example, Ricky posted the link for Rohl (yes that's the guy I was thinking of) and ON THAT SITE it says

So I'll do some more research on the subject of biblical histiricity before I take up any more of this thread's space :lol:
But

okay, say I accept the volcano theory: I'd like to know how did Moses know WHEN it was going to happen? If it'd been me in his position I would have just stood there muttering something along the lines of "f*ck me, that's neat"

 

Exactly - he did not.
God did

(Roel will now point out that it could be coincidence and thus ascribed to God )

 

It could be coincidence. It was merely ascribed to God.



If the history of Moses' travels did indeed involve a volcanic eruption that caused the Red Sea to dry out and fill back up again in quick succession, then indeed his exact words must have been "f*ck me, that's neat". Especially since it would be a massive help in convincing others of the new religion he was trying to spread.

 

You mean the old religion he was helping to continue, surely?

 

New for him...

It would still have been a rather convenient occurance for him.

 

It was. That is the point.

 

...Which can lead some to believe that a certain external force made it happen this way, while others take a more skeptical point of view and consider it a cute legend or a happy coincidence for Moses and the Jews. They could use a little happiness and luck after all, judging what comes next according to the OT.

 

But don't you find it odd how often they get 'good luck'?

 

...and for the Minoans, slightly bad luck when Santorini went up.

or it could be past-fact revisionism, hey this happened and that happened and wouldn't it be cool if we wrote it this way?

 

Absolutely. As a side topic, many believe Minoan Crete to be Atlantis, but that's another story.

I think that this is pretty much Roel's theory on the whole Bible.

 

Then I'm on Roel's side. I think the bible is a valuable document (and at times a boring read), but is not to be taken as:
a factual history (come to think of it, I doubt I've ever read a completely factual history)
the absolute word of God (unless He changes his mind as often as I change my socks)
As for the Atlantis thing, yep and I personally believe that Santorini may have been the basis for some of the stories but I've been trawling the net and there's some seriously deluded people out there. I followed an Atlantis (researching the legend) link to "Atlantis-the daily life and rituals" to "Atlanteans were Martians" (and so are we) to another site that listed about 50 different alien races, with their respective alliances, attitude toward Earth and physical/ psychological descriptions
BUT: what about ID? We got sidetracked :lol:

 

Well, it is a pretty good history resource. Much of it was origibally written roughly contemporary with events, and the bigger, verifiable stuff has generally been confirmed. Also details like arms, armour, clothing etc. It provides a wonderful glimpse into the life, society, etc of the Jewish people. I often get disracted during Bible studies by nteresting historical nuggets!
Yes, it has a bias (no document does not).

God changing his mind. In what way? Examples?
Should we start another 'discuss Christianity' thread?

:lol:
Oh, I love it!
I bet they were serious, too!

 

try http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html
example:
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
contrast with
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
so Adam was definitely before the animals, except when they were created first?

Stone-cold serious, that's what worries me :lol: and of course NASA knows about it and it's also a government cover-up, (hops smartly over to UFO thread :bang: ). People who don't accept the truth are under government mind control (and my controller is telling me to get a frosty one out of the fridge right about now)

 

From that example, my initial reaction is:
Just because they have already been created, does not mean that God cannot then make another one of each so that one of each is present for Adam to look at & name. C'mon, you can do better!
(or should I not issue such challenges? )

Back to UFOs:

If the Government can control minds that much, why can / do people still protest?
Anyway - I think that your controller is the most sensible yet.

 

Re doing better, check that link, they were all written by a vicar!

as for

Isn't it obvious? (My invisible atlantean spirit guide explained this to me before he nipped off to Mars for a holiday) - to give us the illusion of freedom, we're too busy worrying about things like the mortgage and is Tony Blair really the smug idiot he looks like to look at the real issues.
Get real Ricky, I've read the truth :lol:
It's aliens, Martians, Atlanteans, the Freemasons (who as everybody knows are immortal Illuminati adepts) witha hefty dose of Zionist bankrolling that are the genuine governments. Search the internet - you'll spend hours laughing. Some of these people are so dumb I wonder who turns their computers on for them.
"Never give credence to a conspiracy that is better explained by stupidity" - Oli