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Is Alan Turing's effort code-breaking effort to the war exaggerated?

Discussion in 'Codes, Cyphers & Spies' started by DerGiLLster, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    I see. so at least you had the good sense to edit out your tertiary-sourced based reply from last night, before I could skewer it. Was it because you realized that attempting to move the goalposts yet again by trying to narrow the "exemple" to "only U-Boats in the Atlantic convoy routes count" would be held up for the derision it deserves? Or was it because you realized your attempting to move the goalposts yet again from combat operational to "every U-Boat commissioned" would be held up for the derision it deserves? Or was it because you knew that attempting to move the goalposts yet again from "U-Boats at sea" to "it doesn't count if they are transiting too or from patrols" would be held up for the derision it deserves? Or was it because you simply realized the numbers were aggregated and likely wrong? :mad:

    Meanwhile,

    Primitive -
    1. relating to, denoting, or preserving the character of an early stage in the evolutionary or historical development of something.
    2. not developed or derived from anything else.

    Obsolete -
    1. no longer produced or used; out of date.

    Note that neither one applies to the submarines of World War II, and neither complements the other, i.e. they are CONTRADICTORY.

    The word applicable to the Typ II, VII, and IX U-Boat by 1943 is "obsolescent". :mad:
     
  2. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    And every one is talking about U Boats and the BP lobby claimed that they shortened the war by several months by winning the U Boat war .. No one is talking about the war in NA, in Italy about Overlord, about the strategic air offensive against Germany .

    Thus : Turing = the U Boat war .
     
  3. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    I have asked several times for ONE proof that what Turing did was important, had any influence, and all I got as answer was a lot of waffle about bombes . Probably the reason is that there is no proof at all that what Turing did was important, had any influence and that the usual suspects chose to avoid the question by doing blahblah about meaningless technical niceties .
     
  4. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    You're now officially ignored. Bye.
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    CRYPTOGRAPHIC HISTORY OF WORK ON THE GERMAN NAVAL ENIGMA BY C.H.O'D. ALEXANDER, C.B.E., i.d.c.

    pgs 42-43

    But then again, LJAd likely has never heard of Conel Hugh O'Donel Alexander.
     
  6. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes I heard of him , but as I expected, you are unable to answer my question ,which was : ONE PROOF that what Turing did was important, I did not ask for the opinion of Alexander . The opinion of Alexander is not a proof .

    To say that Turing's work was the biggest factor in Hut 8's success is an opinion, as it is to say that Hut 8 had any success .Proof please .

    If someone said that what Henry Kaiser did was important, he was right, because we have the proofs for what Kaiser did and the proofs that what he did was important .

    There is no proof that the invention of the Bombe was important : what was the result of the invention of the Bombe ?
     
  7. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Arrant stupidity.

    A random search produces..."Aware of his need for fuel,U-Boat Control ordered Seehausen [U-66] to rendezvous with the U-tanker U-488 on April 26 [1944]. Allied codebreakers decrypted Enigma messages about this rendezvous and American naval authorities put a hunter-killer group on the scent..." The upshot was U-488 was sunk...one of those "milch kuhe", which apparently were never sunk due to crypt-analysis...as was U-66.
     
  8. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Actually, you have no proof...Only someone's opinion that what he did was important.

    And, as you say "I did not ask for the opinion..."
     
  9. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Haha: Thus the result of the decrypting of Enigma message is that in 1944 (when Germany had already lost the U Boat war) one milk cow and one other U Boat were lost .

    Besides, this is NOT an answer on my question ,which was : an exemple for the importance of the work of Turing .Unless there is a proof that these 2 UBoats were lost because of the work of Turing,and that without Turing,they would not be lost,the conclusion is that the answer is irrelevant for the question .
     
  10. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    It is a fact that a lot of Liberty ships were built .

    For Turing, there are only claims which are founded on conviction only . Nothing more .

    The German UBoat successes were obtained independent from what was doing the BDienst .

    The Allied anti UBoat successes were obtained independent from what was doing BP .

    There are no correlations between both .
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I said proof LJAd...

    Kaiser did not build these ships with his own two hands did he?
     
  12. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Did Turing build the bombe with his own hands ?
     
  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Now now LJAd...You've already "dismissed" Turing as being "important".

    Where is your "proof" for Kaiser? Let us see this "proof" please. So we know where to set the bar for Turing.
     
  14. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Nice try to highjack the topic, but it fails .
     
  15. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The Kaiser yards built 1490 ships at 2/3 the time of the average of all other shipyards . You can say that this is not important, after all it is a free world .
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Which was less than 1/3 of the Liberty ships constructed.

    So, in the big scheme of things. It is not important.

    Like I said...Proof please...100% incontrovertible proof.
     
  17. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    After all these years ,I am still amazed by the willingness of intelligent people (as Takao... yes ! ) to fall for a hype which is nothing else than a lot of waffling .


    Let's take a waffle expert :prof (of course ) Rohwer who was waffling the following in "Ultra and the Battle of the Atlantic "


    "I am sure that, without the work of many unknown experts at BP as .....

    .,the turning point of the Battle of the Atlantic would not have come as it did in may 1943, but months, perhaps many months,later

    .Then the Allied invasion of Normandy may not have been possible in June 1944

    .There would have been a chain of developments very different from the ones we experienced .Of course,there would have been an Allied victory in the end,

    but this end may have been introduced by dropping the first atomic bomb on Berlin .

    But this is speculation ."

    1 ° I am sure : translation : I have no proof, but I am convinced = blahblah .

    2° Perhaps : translation : I am not sure, Iam guessing

    3 ° May not have been possible : translation : I don't know, I have no notion of Overlord : there is no proof that victory against the U Boats in may 1943 was indespensable for Overlord in june 1944.


    4 ° A chain of developments very different : translation : I am speculating .

    5 ° This may have been introduced : a lot of nonsense, as there was in the OTL no possibility of dropping an atomic bomb on a city : there had been no test explosion before may 1945,something the prof had forgotten .

    About the atomic bomb, Rohwer is here following the goose-steppers by ignoring the fact that there was also some fighting in the east, which was not affected by what was doing Turing and BP .On the first of may, there was no longer any need for dropping an atomic bomb on Berlin, because the flag which traditionally was hanging at the Reichskanzlei ,was replaced by an other, something Rohwer wisely was concealing, hoping that noone would notice it .

    The prof was waffling other things in the same discussion ,but about this later .
     
  18. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Where I am living, 1490 is more than 1/3 of 2710;maybe where you are living, it is 1/3, but that's not my business .
     
  19. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Forgive me. Less than 1/3 of US Maritime Commission construction.


    Still waiting for your 100% incontrovertible proof.

    Since you are waffling...I guess you do not have any.
     
  20. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    It was never intended to drop the bomb on Germany.
     

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