Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Italian Beretta Cal 765 Brevettata question

Discussion in 'Small Arms and Edged Weapons' started by akf86surf, May 11, 2011.

  1. akf86surf

    akf86surf Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    7
    I inherited my late grandfather's beretta, I know some markings may mean who had the gun. I did some research on the serial numbers and know it was most likely in German hands. Also, it has the "UT" near handle of the gun. My grandfather claimed he took it from a German POW.

    On the gun, under where you cock it back near the grip has a symbol. It looks like a crown then a circle with some design in the middle. Would these so called symbols mean what type of gun the German Soldier had?

    I will try to post pictures but was not able to get a close enough shot of the certain symbol I spoke of.

    It seems to be a typical beretta in ciculation:

    P. BERETTA-CAL 765 -BREVETTATA
    GARDONE VT 1944
    Serial Number: 525XXX

    Thanks for any help.

    Aaron
     
  2. CPL Punishment

    CPL Punishment Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    44
    Where did your grandfather serve?

    The German army forcibly disarmed the Italian armed forces immediately after their armistice with the Allied Powers on 8 September, 1943. This was called Operation Achse. Rifles, SMGs, MGs and all heavy weapons taken in that operation were placed under the command of the appropriate OKW weapons office, and would have been dispersed to fighting units from there, typically to German allies such as Hungarian and Romanian units which were already using some weapons of Italian origin, or to scratch organizations like the various foreign SS auxiliaries.

    Serial numbers would have been recorded and ideally the arms re-issued would be in blocks, for example 6.5×52mm Mannlicher-Carcano carbines ser. nos. 54000 -65000 to 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian), or something like that. Complex weapons with a lot of internal parts such as an MG would have received a WaffenAmt stamp as assurance to the end user that the gun was complete and functional. These stamps usually involved some form of the Reichsadler and a number. Sometimes the eagle was highly stylized. Look at these p.38 pistol stamps to get an idea of what to look for:

    [​IMG]

    From what I can learn the Germans weren't too interested in the Italian pistols, at least to the extent that they had not kept detailed records. Perhaps individual soldiers were allowed to keep pistols taken from Italian officers, or the pistols were such a diverse and uneven lot that the weapons inspectorate gave up trying to be systematic and just put them into storage along with the other oddballs collected from the Italians. Most of these junk guns ended up being issued to the Volkssturm, the last-ditch militia of invalids, old men, and Hitler-jugend turned out by Goebbels to confront the invader. Though the larger proportion of the Volkssturm faced the Russians, some were assigned to defend on the Anglo-American front where they died or were taken captive. The Volkssturm were armed with anything that could shoot, but it was a common practice to give a man pistol if his main weapon was a Panzerfaust. If your grandfather captured his Beretta (M1935, I assume) in Germany in 1945 it was likely one of those.

    [​IMG]
     
    akf86surf likes this.
  3. CPL Punishment

    CPL Punishment Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    44
    I should have read your post more carefully, the date 1944 makes it impossible for your gun to have been seized in Operation Achse. Since your gun is likely to be an "M 1935" model it was never officially an Italian army issue pistol. The "M 1934" was a .380 caliber pistol accepted for use by the Italian armed forces. The "M 1935" was identical in most respects but chambered for the 7.65mm round and intended for export and the civilian market. 7.65mm and 9mm Parabellum being accepted pistol calibers in the German armed forces Beretta sold many "M 1935" model pistols to Germany where it would have received a WaffenAmt acceptance stamp on the frame. Look for a Reichsadler and a circle with a code such as "4/VT" within. Without those marks the gun was likely in civilian use until somehow acquired or confiscated by your grandfather's PoW. Habitual German use of captured small arms makes background checks very difficult. Information about the PoW might be helpful. Was he a regular officer or a noncom? Was he Volkssturm?

    What you describe as a crown, could it be a WaffenAmt eagle such as in the picture in my previous post? If so it's standard issue.
     
  4. akf86surf

    akf86surf Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    7
    First off, thank you for the very detailed information and help.

    To answer a few things, my grandfather mainly served in Italy with the 5th Army. From the discharge papers I have he was in the Po Valley, Apennines, and Rome/Arno. I really have no way to verify "exactly" how he acquired the gun. From what I mentioned in terms of how he got it may have changed over the years from what he told people. Since he died in 2005, I really have no way to see how accurate his story was. Also, he was an NCO, T/4 rank.

    I found this on wikipedia for what it's worth, "The Beretta M1935 was captured in huge numbers during World War II from Italian and German armed forces by allied soldiers, who liked it because of its small size, rugged design and good construction."

    I will look more carefully for any other markings that you suggested and the WaffenAMT eagle looks like it might be a match. I will keep you posted. Very interesting background on the gun history, thank you!


    Ok, just pulled out a magnifying glass after about 20 minutes of staring at it. I found that supposed crown looks more like WaA 706 eagle of sorts that you posted but without the extra lines on the wings. As far as what is below it I am having the hardest time. It looks anywhere from an animal of sorts to tree branches. Sorry I could not be more descriptive. Everything online is too difficult to compare it with.

    One interesting thing I did not see until now is on the bottom of the gun where the ammo clip goes. On one side it has an "X" and "triangle" above each other. The other side has a "half crest moon" and a "/" on top of each other spread out. Could this be any more clues that could be helpful?

    Again, thanks a lot!

    Aaron
     
  5. akf86surf

    akf86surf Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    7
    Sorry, one last thing I forgot. Where the UT is, I do actually do not see a 4 above it. It looks like the circle was not placed in a good enough area to place the 4 above it. The circle is not completely round.

    I did some more searching and the proof is actually a crown lion proof or brescia proof. Here is some information I found on some gun online forums that some other person asked. Unfortunately they do not say where they got information that was posted. The serial number on my gun made the cutoff starting with 5250XX

    "The crown lion on your pistol is common for pistols in your serial range. From what I have read, the Crown Lion proof was used until 1930 when the Brescia proof house was closed and the Gardone proof house was used. But the "Experts" appear to be wrong, sometime in late 1943 early 1944 the Crown Lion proof starts showing up again on M318 (1943), M34 (1943) and M35 (1944) pistols. Apparently the Brescia proof hose was reopened or Gardone used the proof to help proof pistols being sold to the Germans, before using the (4UT). But Beretta's with this proof that were rebuilt will also have "other" post-war markings added.Model 1935's from around 501680 have the Crown Lion proof, then around #517796 they had both the Crown Lion and (4UT) until the Crown Lion was discontinued around #535386 and the (4UT) was used."
     
  6. CPL Punishment

    CPL Punishment Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    44
    The fact that the proof marks are "out of round," obscured or otherwise unreadable isn't uncommon. Stamps got dull and distorted with use so there are bound to be many that weren't clear when new, let alone after 60 years of wear. This is why pistols with good provenance are so valuable to collectors.

    The M 1935 was intended for the civilian market as well as for German military/police use. From what you learned it would be mostly likely that your pistol was in civilian hands before your grandfather's captive(?) got a hold of it. This wouldn't be unusual in the last months of WWII when the official channels broke down. There are many possibilities. Unfortunately young GIs didn't think about recording the history of their "bring backs;" they just wanted the souvenir and generally weren't bothered by who had this before me, what was his rank and branch of service, how did he get the gun, issue or personal property, etc.

    The marks on the frame are manufactures inspection marks, indicating that the frame passed initial QC. If you dissemble the gun you're likely to find more such marks. Each major component -- barrel, frame, slide, etc. -- got inspected before the gun was assembled and given a serial number. The shape of the mark reflects who did the inspection -- S. Mutti used a cross, S. Franchi used a crescent, S. Anglolini used an A -- something like that, just a convention in the factory the managers knew about for QC purposes.
     
  7. Frank Mancuso

    Frank Mancuso Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pics of a late production "4 UT" mod. 35 at Beretta35-4UT (the article is in Italian only, sorry, and does not add a lot to what you already have discovered, but I am available in case you need some help).

    Best regards.
     

Share This Page