Discussion in 'Post-World War 2 Armour' started by GP, May 20, 2004.
personaly I would rather have a land rover
Product placement! I love it! :grin: :grin:
Take the Humvee!
The issue to me is cost. One can buy a jeep for half the cost of a humvee so I think that's why a lot more people have jeeps. Those friends of mine that have had jeeps wound up hating them because of constant maintenance.
Me, I'll take my Chevy pick-up truck!
This isn't about their use as civilian vehicles. Of course no one can afford those Humvee things in real life, it's about their use as military vehicles.
Having pulled one out of the sand using a Land Rover. The humvee has it's uses but I don't rate them.
I did not see any reference by the original author as to these vehicles being for military rather than civilian use... sorry.
I'd be tempted to follow GP and take the Land Rover.!
But as that's not an option...
Well, the Humvee can be armoured (check out Israeli versions!) which is nice, but not terribly effective against more than handguns!.
The jeep is:
more economical (fuel)
not really a contest.
So why did the US Army change?
Because the Humvee is not open topped, can carry more passengers, carries a more powerful engine that has allot more torque, can carry a much heavier armament, and can be fitted to a variety of combat rolls. The Humvee serves as a Recon vehicle, an anti-tank vehicle, an anti-infantry vehicle, and a platform for support fire among other things. The Willies GP was a piece of paper with an engine.
Unfortunatly, most people on this forum seem to believe that War is fought the same way as it was back in 1940. It isn't, get used to it.
Phelps is right on once again.
If you look at the war in Iraq and the invasion of France 1940, you will see a lot of similarities.
Well, the Willeys Jeep was widely used in recon, I'm fairly sure it could handle a HOT or Milan or similar missile system, and it has had 75mm & 106mm recoiless rifles mounted on it. Plus it had been hung with multiple (usually 3 or 4) machineguns in various roles.
Well yes. That is a point in it's favour!
If it gets stuck, or reaches an obsticle it can't get over, you carry it!
Sorry, guy. An Anti-tank rifle isn't going to save you from an advancing M1A2. And I disagree, a half-way descent missle system would probubly but way too much weight on the back of the jeep and cause it to tip. At the very least, the suspension/transmission would be heavily strained by such a load. Not to mention that carrying any amount of ammunition would be neigh impossable.
Well no. That is not a point in it's favor! It is not good when some Iraqi can open up with an AK and blow the engine of a Jeep. And the Humvee, having as insanely much torque as it does, is pretty hard to immobilize due to a mere obsticle. The Humvee can go up rough inclines you wouldn't believe. Not to mention that its top speed is greater than that of the Willies GP.
And you will see even more vast differences.
Well, the recoiless rifle was for fire support, not anti-tank...
And I'm pretty sure that something along the lines of 'dragon's teeth' would stop a Humvee.
And one thing us poor Brits discovered in Northern Ireland is that it is better to have a stripped-down Landrover from which you can return fire instantly, than an armoured box which is a sitting target for RPGs (or even heavy machineguns).
I'm not saying the Humvee is bad, and that they should not have adopted it (well, maybe I did question why they had...).
It is interesting that in WW2, the Allies had the jeep, and the Germans had the VW - which was given armour. Out in the desert, the Germans were often frustrated at having to tow their VWs out of soft sand, while we could just lift...
Popping the tires? No duh, that'll stop any wheeled vehicle. Thats something all vehicles share, including the Willies GP. But the Humvee is alot less vulnurable to attack than the Willies, with a hugher top speed and a thicker chasis. And again, I must revisit the torque issue. It could climb inclines that the Geep, hell, even the Sherman could not possibly dream of forwarding. Forwarding through water and ground clearence is another issue that the Humvee completely outclasses the Willies in.
Yes, you are.
And its also very interesting that the Humvee has more @#$%ing torque, so it won't get stuck. It'll just pull itself out.
Dragon's teeth are concrete oblongs stuck in the ground, designed to 'beach' vehicles - the belly of the vehicle is on the top of the 'tooth' while the wheels/tracks cannot reach the ground. They are deployed several rows deep, to ensure the vehicle gets firmly stuck.
Well, maybe! :grin:
I'm just arguing one side to keep a debate going, and trying to explore all angles.
However, if the Humvee truely can get itself out of soft sand, where wheels can get no friction, I'm impressed, and will bow to your choice.
And you will see even more vast differences.[/quote]
Not that many except for smarter weapons. Or can you give examples please.
I would be happy to learn more.
I've had the pleasure of operating both of them. The Humvee is much more capable. Its' wide track makes it a much more stable platform for many uses, not to mention the torque. On the other hand, however, the U.S. Army pays about 3-4 times more for each Humvee than what they paid for a jeep. Add even more if you put the armor package on the Humvee, and without the armor package, it's nearly as vulnerable to small arms as a jeep.
IMHO, they needed the Humvee but shouldn't have used them to totally replace the jeep.
That depends on what the Humvee was designed for. Is it an armored infantry fighting vehicle, nope, is it designed to be a multi-faceted weapons platform? Nope, you can mount the same kind of weapons on the back of any pick-up trucks.
The Humvee is nothing more than an exotic looking cross-terrain vehicle, sure it is got more horse under the hood, carries larger payload, but again you can say the same thing about just any fords or GM or landrover SUVs. It is just as vulnerable to small arms fire as the Jeep, just look at what happend in Somalia. It still eats up lots of gas, a lot more than the jeep, and yes, it is bigger, presents a bigger target, and it is probably less suited than the smaller Jeep when operating in the narrow streets of the urban environment.
It definitely isn't an APC, but it does fairly well as a platform of some weapons. It's perfect for a TOW, which is a stretch for a jeep or pickup. It does very well mounting the Stingers (Avenger), something a jeep or pickup could only dream about.
If I go to war, I'll take the jeep. Humvee is too big for SE Asian operation. Even here in Bandung, a big city, we barely got big roads for a big vehicle like Humvee...