Kar98k vs Mosin Nagant

I'm really just guessing here, but I would think that the Garand M1 was first used in battle when they appeared on Guadalcanal. I don’t know when they started to appear in the USMC ranks, but the battle itself started in August and lasted six months before the Japanese were cleared out. I am not completely certain that when the 25th Division of the US Army came onto the island (late November), they brought M1 Garands with them from Hawaii. I am also not positive the 1st Marines got their Garands while the battle was ongoing, or after the island was secured.

Operation Torch was started on November 8th, 1942, but before the 25th Division arrived on Guadalcanal. But really I don’t really know with any certainty, since in the first few months of the war, especially in the Pacific, very few Garands were in action. The Springfield was still the most common service rifle in the PTO. And that was probably because only about 40-50,000 rifles had been delivered by the end of 1941. But that was well up from the original run of only 7,400 in its first year of mass production.

I do recall reading somewhere that the "Big Red One" (The First Division) had exchanged its 1903 Springfields for M1 Garands and also got the new "pot" helmets to replace the WW1 style helmets before they landed in Africa. And since I also seem to recall that the first combat they had in Africa was against the French Foreign Legion, it wouldn’t surprise me if the first victims of the M1 Garand were French, not German or Japanese.

Like I said, just guessing. But it would make sense if it was first used in Africa as that would tie in with the "Europe first" policy of the US military and government.

 

The question is which rifle is better Mosin Nagant or K98K...Not what you would use nowadays.

 

From this article: ( The M1 rifle ) it sounds like the Marines Adopted the M-1 in Nov. '41 and there were none to few taken with them to the Canal. The ones Marines did have during the battle were "scrounged" from Army units.

Brad

 

Thanks for the link Brad, that is sort of what my old "swiss cheese" memory was remembering. So, that means that since the 25th didn't get to Guadalcanal until late Nov., the first time the M1 Garand saw action would probably be the Operation Torch landings in early Nov., with the First Division's regimental combat teams when they engaged the French Foreign Legion.

 

That would be what I consider an accurate assumption. Here is another little blurb: ( M1 Garand - World War II M1 Garand Rifle )

Operational History:
When first introduced, the M1 was plagued by production problems which delayed initial deliveries until September 1937. Though Springfield was able to build 100 per day two years later, production was slow due to changes in the rifle's barrel and gas cylinder. By January 1941, many of the problems were resolved and production increased to 600 per day. This increase led to the US Army being fully equipped with the M1 by the end of the year. The weapon was also adopted by the US Marine Corps, but with some initial reservations. It was not until midway through World War II that USMC was completely changed over.

This is getting off topic though and I would hate to be labled a thread Pirate

 

I own 1 K98, a very nice dou 44 specimen. As much as I like it, it does not do a well as my M91/59 (admittedly a post-war rebuild) or one of my M91/30s. As far as sticky bolt syndrome, that depends on what kind of ammo used (brass or steel case, copper-washed or lacquer-coated, etc.). The post-war Turkish milsurp I shoot in my K98 is loaded quite hotly and bolt stickiness is common, more so than in any load in my 4 M-Ns.

tom

 

This is a weird post for me to make, but I've had several bad dreams where I'm in WW2 and armed with a bolt action rifle. I'm desperately trying to work the bolt and reload while I shoot ineffectively at the charging enemy.

My dreams would be better if I had a M1.

 

Here is my M44.

 

Nah............compared to some of you posts this one is nothin'.....LOL

 

What post (s) did you have in mind ?

 

Just heckling ya bud.......

 

Hello, sorry to bring this thread back and a little off-topic at that. I was just browsing and saw the question about when the garand first saw action in WW2. There were a lot of garands in Bataan. The US Army's Philippine Division was armed with them. In addition the 26th Cavalry PS carried them too.

There were a lot of 1903's and 1917's in Bataan to be sure. The Philippine Commonwealth army was armed with Enfield 1917's and the US army support troops, grounded airmen, beached sailors, were given 1903's as those were the surplus available when the time came to give everyman a rifle. However army infantry/combat units were armed with garands (31st Infantry US, 57th Infantry PS, 45th Infantry PS, 26th Cavalry PS, 14th Combat Engineers). There are many pictures showing this. And any decent in depth book about the Bataan campaign will state something about the garands.

As far as when or where the garand first saw action, probably in December 1941, near Lingayen gulf when the 26th Cavalry PS first engaged the Japanese landing.

Here's one picture (click for bigger):

 

Hello Sloniksp

I think the general concensus amongst experts is that the Germans possessed the best optics. The Soviet scopes are maybe slightly easier to zero in, but they also lose their zero much more easily as-well. The German mounting system allowed for more precise adjustments and had the advantage that the scope could be taken off & on without the loss of zero

This means German snipers could zero in their rifles at all ranges while being at the safety of their own shooting ranges, allowing for optimum accuracy (Zeroing in a rifle in a hostile inviroment is risky afterall, and a lot of Soviet snipers surely died from trying to do so), and then when traveling to the front they could take off the scope preventing any damage to it during travel, and then when need be put it on again and instantly have it zeroed in with pinpoint accuracy.

I can understand why you would think that from just looking at the muzzle velocities of both wepaons, but in reality it's not like that Sloniksp.

In reality the Karabiner 98K actually has a longer effective range than the Mosin Nagant, and that mostly because it fires a much heavier and more aerodynamic projectile than the Mosin.

The std. German Sniper round (earlier it was the std. infantry ball, replaced later by the SmE) was the sS round, or Schwere Spitzgeschoss, a Full Metal Jacketed Boat tail projectile weighing 198 grains. This projectile, the s.S., had the highest average ballistic coefficient of any WWII rifle projectile, the average BC being ~.580 at supersonic speeds and ~.555 at subsonic speeds. By comparison the .30 caliber 172 grain M72 Match projectile has an average ballistic coefficient of ~.525 at supersonic speeds and ~.515 at subsonic speeds. And thus the German sS projectile retained its speed & energy over range a lot better than any Allied rifle projectile of the war.

The sS round was primarily used by German snipers after 1941, as the German army gradually started shifting over to the lighter 178 gr SmE BT projectile which instead of a lead core contained a hardened steel core, increasing the penetration power against lightly armoured targets.

The muzzle velocity of the 198 gr sS round through the Kar98k's 600mm barrel is on average 755-760 m/s.

The Mosin on the other hand fired a 147 grain flat based spitzer which only had a BC of around .405 to .415, and thus quickly lost speed & energy in flight. The muzzle velocity was high though, at around 870 m/s, but during WW1 the German Gewehr 98 also fired a 154 gr flat based spitzer to roughly the same velocity at around 890 m/s. But even so the maximum range of these lighter rounds are much shorter than that of the heavier rounds, esp. compared to the s.S. round fired by the Kar98k.

As for the rifles themselves, well the Kar98k is the more accurate of the two, it's simply better made, much tighter tolerances etc etc. The trigger pull is also better on the Kar98k. German top sniper Josef "Sepp" Allerberger who had the opportunity to use both the Mosin & Mauser in actual combat said in his book that the best sniper rifle he ever fired during the war was the Kar98k as it was the rifle which by far the best long range shooting characteristics of all he ever fired. But Sepp also mentions that the Mosin served its' purpose well, and that he achieved good results with that rifle.

Hope you guys found this info helpful, I have a great interest in all WW2 rifles, and I greatly admire both the Mauser & Mosin

Cheers!

 

Very true ScreaminEagle, I agree

I think they recently showed something about this on National Geographic didn't they ?

Cheers!

 

Sounds like one of mine except I had caught a primed grenade at one point. It was one of those dreams where your mind controls everything and you are helpless only to watch.

 

No way, some snipers would claim to take down machine gun nests and such from long range, but modern historians think that it's bull crap because the mass produced anti-tank rounds were extremely unconsistent.

 

I would pick the kar98K,
I don't have any shooting experience but because many german soldiers said it was a very reliable weapon so...

 

Yes, the Garand was definitely one of the best battle rifles in service during the war, and it was definitely a superior std. infantry weapon than any bolt action rifle. A truly great rifle.

 

Typical, The Barrett line of .50 rifles are really overrated. And sloppy when used for sniping work. It's used mostly as an anti material weapon, not anti infantry. And for good reason, people who adore this gun as a sniping weapon have never used it. The ammunition alone is brutally heavy, not to mention a large cumbersome rifle to carry around with you. The muzzle flash from it will give you away to even someone who's blind. And there's a reason why they say 'one shot, one kill' when it comes to sniping, to prevent collateral damage which is virtually impossible to avoid since the .50 cal round is a very heavy and powerful round.