An ironic thing about the german "pure" military was that they had many MANY non-pure people in their forces. People who were conscripted or volunteered after their country was invaded by germany. I read this certain example in a book written by Steven Ambrose called D-day. 3 German soldiers were captured the morning of the invasion at Omaha beach. To the american's surprise...the germans were not german; they were Korean...(KOREANS fighting for germany in France!!!!!) What had happened was that those 3 Koreans were forced into the Japanese army when they were in Korea which was a Japanese province...then in Japan's 1939 brief war with Russia, Korea was occupied by the Russians...then those 3 Koreans were forced into the Red army and were stationed to protect Moscow...in 1941 they were captured by the german army and joined the Germans (either they were forced or volunteered) The germans were also then switching Pure german division's in France with (un-pure) divisions in Russia...So thus these 3 Koreans were sent to France...they then were captured by the Americans and in all likelyhood sent back to Korea........... THEN through common sense you can expect that these 3 Koreans ended up fighting with or against the US forces during the Korean War! Now insn't that the strangest series of events HAHA
I can't vouch for this story's authenticity, but I have heard this before, and not from Ambrose. I'll look into this, no promises, because it is an extremely obscure event.
Any chance those Koreans were Waffen-SS?? Speaking of non-Germans serving the Reich, by crunch time '44-45, those "paragons of Aryan manhood" had been joined by every ethnicity from Belgian to Byelorussian! All to make that beady-eyed ex-chicken rancher HH look that much more valuable to Uncle Adolf!! ------------------ Novus Ordo Seclorum [This message has been edited by Killjoy (edited 26 December 2000).]
My reasons for saying those things about Stephan Ambrose are: 1)He is making a huge profit off of the vets who were actually there. 2)He has been wrong on many occasions. He seems to be trying to rewrite history to fit his impressions of things. 3)He is known for mis-quoting vets-thats why Waffen SS vets will not contribute to anything Ambrose gets his hands in. My sources for this are Knights Cross Recipients: Remy Schrijnen (A personal friend of mine) and Paul-Albert Kausch (the man who rescued Remy, and is one of his best friends) 4)Ambrose got his start in writing history, I think with the help from Ike himself, by writing his Bio. Ambrose in well known for his anti-military stances. Only because of his recent successes, does he portray anything positive on WW2. You can read Ambroses books, as works of fiction, done along historical lines. It would be better to go re-read the time/life series on WW2, the American Heritage book on WW2, books by Christopher Ailsby, Gordon Williamson (I know-he also has a wee reputation for pissing off the vets, but he is biased, more than Ambrose is) Anthony Beevor, and I hate to admit but, Lucas. To me, Ambrose, is the Montgomery, in the publication world. Ambrose takes too much credit. I didnt mean to sound rude or any way in the negative, its just my opinion, and some items that I wanted to point out. Ambrose is not worth wasting goog money on, when there are hundreds of better authors out there. I have a fairly large library of my own thats on WW2, and growing. Plus, I have many German vets to get my information from, and if challenged, will state my sources. One major thing, I know I do not know it all-I am very far from it. All I can do is quote the vets, and my books. Hope nobody is offended by my posting-if so, I apoligise in advance. Happy Neue Jahr.
Stephen Ambrose has never been in my good books either. I have read his books and they are full of errors, both big and small. For example, he calls the Me163 Comet a jet aircraft, it's not, it is a rocket aircraft. If this were the extent of the discrepancies, I would gladly overlook it, but his work is literally stuffed with his little 'liberties'. At any rate, I'm glad you told me about his unpopularity with veterans. That is the final nail in the coffin of his credibility for me. If the men who were there don't agree, how can we trust his writing. As for the koreans, I honestly recall that they were mongolian monks, conscripted to serve. I'm starting to get the feeling that this is a WW2 urban legend, where everyone has heard of this but the details are different with every individuals' account and there are no primary sources. I'd love to see it somewhere in hard text.
Now that its been mentioned a few times, some of the dust from my brain has been removed. It does seem that I heard or read somewhere, that some orientals did serve, but I think it was a few Japaneese, who served in the Wehrmacht. I dont know if it is a fact, but I heard that one even served in the Waffen SS. Maybe I could ask Remy if he knows? I first heard bad news about Ambrose, about 2 years ago. I have only heard about him for maybe 2-1/2 years. I listened to Ambroses bull on documentaries, on the History Channel. I never have agreed with much of anything he has said. Usually, I give an author-at least 2 chances to make a good impression on me. I read one of Ambroses titles, I dont remember which, I think it was Citizen Soldier? or something like that. Anyway, I dont know what it was but, I didnt like the book either. I agree with you on Ambrose. He has ticked off too many vets, and I do not suppore him. To open "His" museum, he recieved many many things from vets, who also do not get the credit they deserve. You know, whats funny? When I was at U 181s vet reunion in Bad Camberg, some of them asked what I thought about Stephen Ambrose. I told them basically what I ranted on here. The vets were a little surprised at what I said but, when I explained; they understood my reasons. I havent thought of this, since the reunion. I also hope that I can get some of these vets to participate, in this forum; in the future. They will be the Kriegsmarine experts, and Bernard, will be the East Front and Artillery expert. Wish me luck in getting them here.
hmmm damn well i just got his book on D-day too lol RATS! All that is very shoking to me hmmm...well the museam was a good idea nontheless...right? I didn't think his books were that bad...but that is disappointing that they lack in historical accuracy regarding quotes, battles and the like! oh well
The Museum was a great idea. What I do not agree on, is that Ambrose milked the vets for all he could, in order to get all these items in the museum. I have not been able to visit his museum but, would like to do so in the near future. I would bet, that he will not get much help from the vets in the future. What you say in his lack of historical accuracy, regarding quotes and battles and the like--thats just a part of why I will not spend my money to support Ambrose. I am not rich nor even near well-to-do. I have to struggle to get by financial wise these days. So if I were to buy any books, I would choose the one with the best information to fit my research needs. Unfortunately, Ambrose has not written anything good yet, so I will stick with the authors I do "know". Case in point: Say if you wanted an all original German Combat helmet, and you had a choice of 2 dealers to buy from. Dealer #1, is well-known, and you can trust him, dealer #2, has a blotched reputation, who would you buy from? I would by from dealer #1, not #2. Also becausae I cannot afford to take a risk with dealer #2, simply because I do not have the money to waste. Right now, if I got scammed for $10.00, it would hurt. If Ambrose is a favorite author of yours-I will not "knock" him further. Take care and HAPPY NEW YEARS!
nnaaaa i don't care...i was just surprised for i had never heard that about him before. Happy New year to your self evens!
I have owned the book for more than 3 years and I have not seen anything mentioning the name Stephan Ambrose, there is a Stephen Badsey. I think that the book is reasonably good. I know you are just stating what you think but I found nothing wrong with it. In the future I will look out for the works of Stephan Ambrose and avoid them.
Good idea Madcap7 because since this original thread was really happening, Ambrose has Snafu'ed a few more times with the vets. A well-known Luft fighter pilot that im writing to, said he was approached by Ambrose to do his story. He told me this after I had asked him if he has ever written a book on his achievements, and had said no, but that a well-known American auther had approached him on it. I asked him if it was Ambrose, and he replied that he was shocked that I would guess who it was. So I replied and told him all about what Ambrose has done. Ambrose had apparently asked him to "loan" him his Badges and Awards, including His Knights Cross, AND was about to, when my letter arrived telling him of Ambrose, and his bogus promises. These awards were supposedly going tpo be on display at his museum, in a German section that was supposed to be started. I told him that if he ever expected to have his decorations, that he must not send them to that museum, as they have aproblem with stuff "dissappearing" and or out right being sold at Ambroses profits, and the vet gets nothing. This is one of the reasons why he has p ssed-off so many vets--especially German vets. I have enough German vet/friends, that if I wanted to do somekind of a project, that I could borrow their items with them knwing that they will get them back without problems. Ambrose's problem was that he "misrepresented" his intentions on the vets stuff. Some did just gave him their stuff, others loaned their stuff to him, and some of it turned up "missing" (sold) more like it. A few years ago, this kind of problem supposedly happened with Gordon Williamson. It was nothing but Bollocks, and was someones attempt at trying to ruin Gordons reputation. Luckily though, we all saw through it. By the way, he is a moderator and regular member of the Wehrmacht-Awards and Decorations forum, along with several other authors.
Korean and many other far-east troop in europe during the second world war is more common than you think. I'm vietnamese, and my great-grandfather was a conscript in world war 2. We were a french colony at the time. Obviously, I assume he fought the japanese for the french army early in the war. Boy, was I wrong. He was ship from Vietnam all the way to Europe for WW2. I only found out a few years ago that I had french relatives, (relate by blood.. their kids are 1/4 vietnamese, 3/4 french) living in Paris and I actually meet them too. This might sound far-fetch, but oriental like to have big families and a tendency to spread around the world. Almost every family in Vietnam has a military history whether they want one or not. until a few decade ago that is one country that keeps going from one war to another.
Speaking of Oriental troops--this is kinda related--in a way. I went to the big gun and militaria show in Houston in early Feb this year. I found a dealer who had about 1o different repo photos of Chinese Troops wearing almost complete German Wehrmacht uniforms. Some were even in photos showing German AA guns of different sizes. BUT, they werent a part of the German Army in any way, shape or form and were stationed only in China. I was all set to buy an overpriced copy of each photo (just for this site) but the dealer sold them before I could get back to his booth-even though he promised to save them for me. Oh well though, I much more better so spent my money on a nice 8x10 autographed photo of Flying Tiger ace/Squadron Commander (The Panda Bears)and retired Army General. Also got an 8x10 autographed photo of David van Kirk, the Enola Gay bombers Navigator. Plus I have a few more vet addresses added to my collection.
Who is this "Bernard" that knows artillery? I'd love to get into contact with him! Arty (Allied or Axis) has always been one of my interests. I've picked up a few too many manuals here and there, and would love to ask the "experts" what I should be REALLY concentrating on for my collection, as well as my re-enacting interests... not that I'll be buying a 105 or 155 anytime soon, but... [ 13 March 2002: Message edited by: Modus ]</p>
Bernard was in the German Army in ww2. He had volunteered for the uboats but was sent for artillery officer training in Potsdam. When he graduated--he served on the Eastern Front. All I can do to try and get you in touch with him is to send him an email and ask if he will allow me to let you have his email address. Also, as a side note--he worked for Werner von braun when he was at NASA.
