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Less interest in the Pacific?

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by JagdtigerI, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Hope you´re the alpha!
     
  2. syscom3

    syscom3 Member

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    I've often wondered why the best post war literature (in the US) was about the war in the Pacific and not Europe.

    The Thin Red Line
    The Naked and the Dead
    Tales of the South Pacific (the book, not the movie)
     
  3. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    By talking about literature, what is the best and the most neutral written ( i don´t want the heroic-style written ones) to the pacific theatre? If possible including tactics and strategy.
     
  4. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    I just finished reading a book on the Guadalcanal Naval campaign you might enjoy, "Neptune's Inferno:The U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal" by James D. Hornfischer. It's good enough that it might wet your appetite for further explorations.

    If you like nuts and bolts type stuff, there's the Gordon Rottman series on the Marine Corps in WWII. He goes deeply into unit organization, TO&E's, how they evolved, with a short synopsis on most battles, extensive OOB's and information on weapons, tactics, etc. Really good little books. Here's some links to them on Amazon. If you decide you're interested in them check out the used section and you can get a brand new used copy for 3/5th's the new price.


    Amazon.com: US Marine Corps Pacific Theater of Operations 1941-43 (Battle Orders) (9781841765181): Gordon Rottman: Books


    Amazon.com: US Marine Corps Pacific Theater of Operations 1941-43 (Battle Orders) (9781841765181): Gordon Rottman: Books

    Amazon.com: US Marine Corps Pacific Theater of Operations 1943-44 (Battle Orders) (v. 2) (9781841766515): Gordon Rottman: Books

    Amazon.com: US Marine Corps Pacific Theater of Operations 1944-45 (Battle Orders) (9781841766591): Gordon Rottman: Books


    Here's a link to the hyperwar history on the web, good stuff once you get into the subject, and an invaluable resource but not gripping reading like Hornfischer's book mentioned above or his other book "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" or Alexander's "Utmost Savagery".

    HyperWar: US Army in WWII: American Military History [Chapter 23]

    Here's the U.S. Navy Hyperwar link:
    HyperWar: U.S. Navy in World War II

    Here's the Marine Corps WWII Hyperwar link:
    HyperWar: U.S. Marine Corps in World War II


    Hornfischer's books and Alexander's are not written in a heroic style, they are good neutral histories, well based in the war situation, personalities, weapons, technologies and such. They can't help but be heroic though, due to the subject matter they chose. 3 DD's and a DE against a squadron of battleships and heavy cruisers, including the Yamato, the biggest warship in the world. Sailors fighting until the water rose around their feet and with their ships shot out from under them is heroic stuff. That's like trying to write a history of the battle of Thermopylae and not having the 300 Spartans come off as heroic.
     
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  5. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    duplicate post-deleted
     
  6. syscom3

    syscom3 Member

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    I just finished "The Naked and the Dead"

    Very well written and deserving of its accolades. Its fiction, but rooted in the wartime experiences of the author. He is very unsympathetic towards everyone, and doesnt pull punches on what the war was like in the jungles.

    I would also like to add one thing ..... the author also framed the personalities (in the book) against the backdrop of the prewar period, the great depression. All the non officers had rough lives growing up and the author expertly and seamlessly wove their stories into the bigger story.
     
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  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Damn good book! I've read a lot of the documents he cites and he's very careful with his sources. Great follow-up to Last Stand of the Tin-can Sailors.
     
  8. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Yes sir, he's a pretty darned good author. One of new favorites!
     
  9. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I think he's ticking off the "old school" by going to the primary source documents rather than citing somebody's third/fourth hand analysis. I seldom buy new hardbacks, but he's my main exception.
     
  10. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Thank you for the advices USMCPrice!

    I´ll follow them and see if they awake my interests in the Pacifc war.

    Thanks syscom for your advice!
     
  11. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    I agree, OP. I've read everything by Hornfischer, and I believe he has hit the nail on the head each time. He has helped to develop my interest in the Pacific.
     
  12. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Hornfischer is also very good at painting the backstory and placing things in a global context without dwelling on it too extensively. I know one thing that sticks in my mind from "Neptune's Inferno" was how much logistical issues hamstrung Nimitz. The whole deal about a number of old battleships being available on the west coast of the U.S. (several were reconstructed survivor's of Pearl Harbor). They were available to be used in the Pacific but had to be left on the west coast because they were fuel hogs. Nimitz couldn't deploy them to the South Pacific because he didn't have enough tankers to transport the fuel. The tankers were needed in the Atlantic to keep Britain supplied because the U-Boat campaign had taken a heavy toll on the U.S. tanker fleet.
     
  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I wonder if it would have been possible to stage them up somewhere, maybe Darwin? Having a battle squadron there would have given the locals a warm and fuzzy? Or would it have been considered painting a bull's eye on the place, a juicy target for the IJN?
     
  14. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Very good question and interesting supposition. Darwin is fairly isolated on Australia's north coast, you'd still have the fuel issue plus it would be easy for carrier based and land based air to approach it from the north. Carriers could approach down the coast of the Phillipines to Indonesia and Timor or along the Malaysian coast. You couldn't base them along the east, northeast coast of Australia unless you based them at Brisbane on south because they are within range of land based bombers out of Rabaul. Brisbane on south would be safe but you still have the fuel issue. If Nimitz lacked fuel to operate them out of Hawaii, the situation would only be worse at the end of the supply lines in Australia. I guess he figured it was better to leave them on the west coast where the fuel availability allowed them to put to sea and train to maintain their fighting edge than leave them sitting closer to the battle zone and have their skills deteriorate.

    I read somewhere once that supplies were still a big issue, in Australia/New Zealand even into late 1943. One fact that sticks in my mind is that the 2d Marine Division did not have bazookas when they assaulted Betio in the Tarawa Atoll, while the Army's 27th Infantry Division had them for the Makin assault, same campaign (November 1943). The reason given was the 27th worked up in Hawaii closer in on the supply chain and the Marines worked up in New Zealand towards the end of the supply chain. The equipment just hadn't reached there yet.
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I know it's an unlikely scenario or they would have implemented something along those lines. The "fleet in being" factor enters here, however. Having four BBs in Darwin would be "expensive" at the start, but then it would be maintenance costs if they were at anchor most of the time. Tanker once a month or so to top off the bunkers that were depleted from running one boiler for "housekeeping" needs. Full tanks would mean they could charge out at any time to go to the rescue of forces that needed. And the BBs could have been a rally point for the USN if they had gotten into real trouble.

    As I said, it's a "could have been" scenario.
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    It would be very unlikely that such targets, sorry, battleships, would be based in Darwin. Given the number of Japanese air attack on the city( some 100 or so), the battleships would be at great risk, for little or no purpose.
    Air raids on Australia, 1942
    Fact sheet 195
    Australia Attacked - Air Raids
    Japanese Air Raids in Australia
    Although basing the battleships somewhere else in Australia would not be out of the question, say Brisbane, Melbourne, or Perth. But, then again, they would be somewhat removed from the action.

    Still, the US based two battleships(IIRC, Maryland and Colorado) in the Fijis during this timeframe, and several of the "West Coast" battleships were being used for convoy escorts in the Pacific.

    With regards to the "tanker shortage", let's not forget that the US was in the process of building several large supply/fueling bases along the convoy route to Australia. HyperWar: Building the Navy's Bases in World War II [Chapter 24]
    And these would all need to first be stocked, and then kept filled.


    Not to stray off topic, but IMHO, "Neptune's Fire" was a considerable let down for me, It got so bad, I thought I was re-reading Eric Hammel's "Guadalcanal: Decision at Sea". Hornfischer covered much the same ground, and told mostly the same stories, and used mostly the same sailors.
     
  17. syscom3

    syscom3 Member

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    Until the NEI fell, there were several refineries available in that country for which to keep a hypothetical fleet fueled up. And I wouldn't suspect it to be too difficult to use the existing refineries in the middle east for the same purpose.
     

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