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lets critic wiki on kursk

Discussion in 'Tank Warfare of World War 2' started by Stonewall phpbb3, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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  2. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    Prochorovka is one of the best-known of the many battles on the Eastern Front during World War II. It has been covered in articles, books and televised historical documentaries, but these accounts vary in accuracy; some are merely incomplete, while others border on fiction. In the generally accepted version of the battle, the three SS divisions attacked Prochorovka shoulder to shoulder, jammed into the terrain between the Psel and the railroad. A total of 500 to 700 German tanks, including dozens of Panzerkampfwagen Mark V Panther medium tanks with 75mm guns and Panzerkampfwagen Mark VI Tiger heavy tanks with deadly 88mm cannons, lumbered forward while hundreds of nimble Soviet T-34 medium tanks raced into the midst of the SS armor and threw the Germans into confusion. The Soviets closed with the panzers, negating the Tigers' 88mm guns, outmaneuvered the German armor and knocked out hundreds of German tanks. The Soviet tank force's audacious tactics resulted in a disastrous defeat for the Germans, and the disorganized SS divisions withdrew, leaving 400 destroyed tanks behind, including between 70 and 100 Tigers and many Panthers. Those losses smashed the SS divisions' fighting power, and as a result Hoth's Fourth Panzer Army had no chance to achieve even a partial victory in the south.

    While it makes a dramatic story, nearly all of this battle scenario is essentially myth. Careful study of the daily tank strength reports and combat records of II SS Panzer Corps--available on microfilm at the National Archives in Washington, D.C.--provides information that forces a historical reappraisal of the battle. These records show, first of all, that Hausser's corps began with far fewer tanks than previously believed and, more important, that they suffered only moderate losses on July 12, 1943. As those reports were intended to allow the corps commander to assess the combat strength of his divisions, they can be considered reasonably accurate. Considering that information, it seems that the Germans may have been near a limited success on the southern flank of the salient.

    The number of SS tanks actually involved in the battle has been variously reported as high as 700 by some authorities, while others have estimated between 300 to 600. Even before the Battle of Kursk began, however, the II SS Panzer Corps never had 500 tanks, much less 700. On July 4, the day before Operation Citadel was launched, Hausser's three divisions possessed a total of 327 tanks between them, plus a number of command tanks. By July 11, the II SS Panzer Corps had a total of 211 operational tanks--Totenkopf had 94 tanks, Leibstandarte had only 56 and Das Reich possessed just 61. Damaged tanks or tanks undergoing repairs are not listed. Only 15 Tiger tanks were still in action at Prochorovka, and there were no SS Panthers available. The battalions that were equipped with Panthers were still training in Germany in July 1943.


    sooo many myths
     
  3. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    Mythology

    A bell-tower commemorating the Soviet victory on the Field of Prokhorovka.Many books written in the 1970's and '80's depict the Battle of Prokhorovka as waves of speedy Soviet T-34 tanks closing with the heavier German Tiger and Panther tanks and then blasting them at point-blank range. This mythology was created by both sides, through the memoirs of Marshal of Armoured Troops Pavel Rotmistrov on the Soviet side, and through the description of the battle by Paul Carell on the German side. Even recent histories, e.g. by Richard Overy, uncritically accept this description of the battle, despite the possibility to check on real events in the unit records of both sides.

    Traditionally the description of this battle goes like this:

    The German advance started and they were astonished to see masses of Soviet armor advancing towards them. What followed was the largest tank engagement ever, with over 1,500 tanks in close contact. The air forces of both countries flew overhead, but they were unable to see anything through the dust and smoke pouring out from destroyed tanks. On the ground, commanders were unable to keep track of developments and the battle rapidly degenerated into an immense number of confused and bitter small-unit actions, often at close quarters. The fighting raged on all day, and by evening the last shots were being fired as the two sides disengaged. German lost 60 tanks and assault guns with the Soviets losing at least eight to ten times that number. [3]
    This depiction is now accepted as incorrect for several reasons.


    Reality
    The Waffen SS units involved at Prokhorovka mostly consisted of Panzer III tanks, up-gunned Panzer IV tanks and only a handful of Tigers (see above). The Waffen SS did not have any of the new Panther tanks at Prokhorovka, as these had been issued exclusively to a Heer Panzerbrigade fighting with Panzergrenadier-Division GroЯdeutschland on the southern shoulder of the salient. The Soviets were handicapped as well with some tank formations consisting of obsolete tanks (T-70 and Churchills).

    While the Germans did suffer casualties when 5th Guards Tank Army's attack hit their first echelon of tanks, SS Panzerkorps was able to set up quick defensive positions and repulse the 5th Guards Tank Armies. The Soviets suffered considerably heavier losses than the Germans.

    According to German tank strength reports, their heaviest tank losses occurred in the first four days of Operation Citadel when Fourth Panzer Army was fighting through Soviet minefields and pak fronts (not to mention mechanical breakdowns; especially with the Panther-equipped units).

    In the most famous action of the day the T-70 and T-34 tanks of the Red Army's 18th and 29th Tank Corps of the 5th Guards Tank Army charged headlong at the SS's tanks. The T34s were faster but more lightly armoured and armed - they aimed to exploit weaknesses in the German machines' armour at close range. The T-70 was already obsolete at the time of the battle, and was no longer produced. A series of disjointed engagements went on for much of the day with high losses on both sides, although it is likely the Germans inflicted more losses than they themselves sustained.



    wiki
     
  4. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    Myth #2: The battle at Prokhorovka was the largest tank battle in history. This is probably the most-repeated claim about CITADEL. It is also misleading and almost certainly wrong. The typical claim is that the battle at Prokhorovka was massive, involving two thousand tanks. While a significant battle, it was nowhere near as large as the myth supposes. One way people arrive at inflated numbers is to assume that all three SS Panzergrenadier divisions participated. In fact, only one, the Liebsstandarte Adolf Hitler (LSSAH) fought this battle. The other two were on the flanks of the LSSAH (Totenkopf on the left, and largely across the Psel River, and Das Reich on the right) and were fighting their own separate battles. At the time of the battle, LSSAH had already been in combat for about a week and was substantially depleted. By July 11th and 12th, the two main days of the battle, LSSAH was down to about 100 tanks, assault guns, and tank destroyers (not including observation tanks). The Soviet units that participated in the battle at Prokhorovka were the 18th and 29th Tank Corps, along with a separate detachment under General Trufanov. These units combined were able to field about 421 tanks, assault guns, and tank destroyers. So, contrary to the popular claims of "thousands" of tanks fighting it out in front of Prokhorovka, we have about 517, of which 455 were actually "tanks". I have provided data for the number of on-hand (that is, ready to fight) armored fighting vehicles for July 10, 11, and 12. Note that these numbers fluctuate for a variety of reasons: temporary losses due to damage, permanent losses due to destruction, and returns from repair shops.



    ok enough of my cut and paste
     
  5. sinissa

    sinissa New Member

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    As i remember battle on kursk was delayed coz the german waited tiger and panther 2 arive on battlefield,what give thime for RA 2 prepare good defense.Idk correct number but il look on the net.
     
  6. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Clearly the battle of Kursk has been massively romanticized, but it remains the biggest "battle" in history if you can call it a single battle. As is stated above by someone (don't know who, you gotta love that Wikipedia), Prokhorovka was not exactly the hectic climax of this battle but rather the name that was 'picked' to represent it, like the battle for Bastogne was not the most important battle of the Ardennes (not by a mile) but nevertheless the most famous.

    Meanwhile Stonewall, do you have anything to add to Wikipedia here?
     
  7. McRis

    McRis New Member

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    I have the following numbers about Prokhorovka;

    Germans;
    No more than 350 tanks in total
    15 Tigers at the frontline(13 of them lost completely while during the whole Zitadelle the Germans lost 15 Tigers!)
    No Panthers

    Soviets;
    501 T-34
    264 T-70
    35 Churchill
    4 regiments equipped with Su-76 SPGs
    A relatively small number of KV-1 and KV-1S tanks

    Total losses(German & Soviet);
    Around 300 tanks,88 guns and 300 german trucks,APCs etc(number of soviet trucks etc unknown)--numbers do not contain salvaged armor and machinery.

    Another myth about Prokhorovka is that the battle took place during a very hot day and under clouds of dust. In fact,that day the sky was very cloudy and--from time to time--even rained.






    Are you referring to the battle for Elsenborn heights or i'm wrong?
     
  8. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    Sorry, I meant to post the in the "World War II: The Battle of Kursk" thread. The statistics apply to the overall campaign not just Prokhorovka,

    Using "The Battle of Kursk" by David M. Glantz and Jonathan M. House, as a source, Soviet casualites are around 180,000 (70,330 "irrevocable" and 107,517 "medical") and German around 50,000 killed, wounded and missing (20,720 in 9th Army July 5-11 and 29,102 in Amy group South from July 5-20). Tank losses are given as 1,614 Soviet tanks and self-propelled guns lost out of 5,035 committed to action. German tanks, assualt guns and self-propelled gun losses are estimated at 1,612 damaged and 323 destroyed.

    In the ensuing Soviet offensive operations at Orel total personnel losses were 429,890 and 2,586 tanks and assault guns (against an estimated 500 German). In the Soviet Belgorod offensive total personnel losses were 255,566 with losses of 1,864 tanks and self-propelled guns against an estimated 327 German. There is no estimate of German personnel losses in either Soviet offensive.

    So if you consider the German and Soviet offensive operations as defining a single campaign, the Soviet losses were around 866,000 and over 6,000 tanks and self-propelled guns. At a guess overall German losses may have been over 100,000 and 1,100 AFVs.
     
  9. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    A good candidate... I wouldn't actually put my chips on a single battle, but Elsenborn Ridge, Sankt Vith, La Gleize and the river Salm were all more important than Bastogne for the simple reason that they destroyed the German spearhead, not the flank cover, the sideshow if you will.

    Anyway, back on topic. From the numbers you're giving, Canambridge, it seems like the much vaunted Russian counterattack directly after Kursk was in fact a spectacular failure, what is your take on that?
     
  10. Siberian Black

    Siberian Black New Member

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    All I know of Kursk was that the German got thier butt kicked and thier Elephent tank killer failed miserably.
     
  11. Christian Ankerstjerne

    Christian Ankerstjerne Member

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    In that case, you don't know much, and what you know is severely flawed ;)
     
  12. Siberian Black

    Siberian Black New Member

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    go figure..... :D
     
  13. jeaguer

    jeaguer New Member

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    on the inacuracy of wiki

    "In that sense it may be seen as “Phase II” of the turning point in the front that began with the German defeat at the Battle of Stalingrad, which aftermath set the table by establishing the Kursk Salient (also known as the Kursk Bulge)"

    the kusk bulge was created by the germans re taking Karkov ( again! )

    the only influence of stalingrad on kursk was the decision by hitler to make it a purely german battle , none of those pesky allied .

    Everybody get hot about sexy prokhorovka, but the battle was won on the nothern side by Rokossovsky .
    The fighting around poniyr was horrendous in its intensity, Model was checked and with the Bagramian counter-attack
    punching a ten miles hole in his back , he was check-mated !
    The citadell pincer operation had lost one of its jaw !
    and the russian high command had again run circle around the OKW !!

    :roll:

    .
     
  14. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    I would say that the Soviet counter-offensives were spectacular, albeit very costly, successes. They inflicted irreplaceable losses on the Germans, pushed them back hundreds of kilometers, and were able to maintain the tempo of operations and keep their forces reasonably well supplied, thus avoiding another back hand stroke.
     
  15. jeaguer

    jeaguer New Member

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    .
    costly yes , but no failures

    The soviet counter offensives didn't stop , relentlessly pushing the Germans out of Belgorod , Orel , Karkov ( again.. this time for good ) within five months Kiev and the Crimea had been retaken , without stopping for the Raspoutsa and onward into one of the mildest and rainiest of winter ,
    changing all road for months into napoleon " fifth element " that's why it got called the mud offensive .
    It was a series of punchs falling relentlessly from different directions , keeping the Germans back pedaling desperately , unable to fix on a line and loosing tanks and men by the thousands , whole armies being surrounded and having to fight their way out if they could
    That was the ultimate demonstration of the operational art ,as I understand it , using a front while others were catching their breath , forcing the crack germans units to run up and down the front , patching holes only to have an other ripped somewhere else

    By the spring of 44 , when the fighting relented ,the Dnieper's position was breached and most of Ukraine was freed , the army group south split into Ukraine north in Galicia and Ukraine south holding on in Romania

    on the eastern front , the year 43 was the year of decision , from the frozen steppe outside Stalingrad , to the clamping of the last Germans forces on the Dnieper for what would be the slaughter of Korsun
    .
     

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