Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by WALT, May 16, 2002.
Alright then, how am I stereotyping the killing of Jews and civilians?
I stand corrected. I must have had dyslexia yesterday. You did not make any stereotype comments in your response. My mistake.
No problem, I was just a bit confused.
Yan, one thing I have to stress to you is, that simply--all Germans cannot be blamed for what the minority did.
Also all Germans cannot be put into the same catagory--i.e. as popularly and always stated in error, that all Germans were and or supported the nazis--totally untrue.
I know and am friends with too many ww2 German vets to allow anything like that go unchallenged. I know and are blessed with knowing and or having contacted appx 600 vets Americans--British and German. I am attempting to contact Polish and Russian ww2 vets as well.
Also again--I stress that this is nothing personal against you--im just merely pointing out something to you with limited time to think of a proper answer.
And in my opinion it was not the minority that did this. While reading "Hitler's willing executioners" and "backing hitler" one sees how much the average citizen of the third Reich knew and how much information he had at his disposal. Hitler made most of his plans very well known to the public, in fact that's how he got their approval and 'love.' He presented nothing new in his book or his speeches, and told the majority what they wanted to hear. He gave the people what they wanted and craved for.
I read more about what my grandfather did and it is not very different to anything else performed in the bloody Eastern Front...
He did such things following superior orders and then, as his men regreted it a lot. But they were just being practical. The Russians they "dispatched" were starving and dying of deceases. Germans were also freezing, without the food they need. I still condemn the act, but they were just following orders and being practical. Actually they saved those poor Russians from more suffering.
Beside, the standars of the War in the East were very different of those of the Western Front as many of my mates here have said. You cannot bliame any side because both of them are so guilty of so many horrible crimes...
Do not compare bloody messes like Stalingrad with an El Alamein or a Cassino...!
Yan--as is very well known--the Versailles (?)Treaty, was waaaaaayyyyyyyy over done and much much toooooo harsh.
Had you been in the situation the Germans were in after ww1--YOU, and I, and EVERYONE else here--would have done THE SAME THINGS--in order to survive.
The Germans were starving--jobless--their money was more than worthless, they had no hope--they had no real Govt, they had mob rule. Then factor in the communists trying to take over the country (which is how and why the Freikorps, was formed--to fight the red menace).
The Freikorps was formed by soldiers-sailors and airmen who had been in the Imperial German Military. These WERE the Germans only real defense against all the perils they faced.
Now unfortunately--out of the ashes of ww1--grew nazism, Allgemeine SS--communism etc(in Germany and most of Western Europe)no jobs--no prospects for even a hard life--no food--no new goods being manufactured--no hope--nothing.
Had the Treaty NOT been so unjustified--as it was, chances are--are that MOST of what happened--would NOT have happened.
If you wish to know who has been anti-semetic the most in history--try the Arabs--the Frainch and the Eastern peoples.
Your generalization of the whole population--or the greater masses--is wrong.
What Hitler gave Germany was: Self Respect, jobs, better pay, food, manufactured goods, automobiles, the autobahn, a better life and a better economy. Like it or not--that is the truth.
Exactly, Karl! You are right.
Versailles treaty was made absolutely by the winners and they obviously wanted to take some advantage of the horrendous war there had been. Above all, France, which was devastated, had revenged and lost 4.5 million of its youth! My mother is French from Strasburg and I really can understand France's sorrow.
France made the treaty to guareantee its future and not permitting all that to happen again. Or at least they tried so.
Hitler was made chancellor because he had people's support. Why? Because he offered them quick and decisive solutions for their inmediat problems: the economics! He was not supported because his antisemitic policies... he was supported because he offered the bussines people security before comunism and offered workers work!
And then he did it. He made all that promises truth and therefore he was loved by his people. He gave them work, and the greatest country to live in. We, German people liked autoritarism as a government style. We were a great nation during the Impire. Then,the West offered us "Mighty democracy" and it turned out to be a filth. Then we had totalitarism and we became the most powerful country in the world! It is an hipocrit that person who denies being proud of NAZI Germany at any moment. And I mean the average citizen. You liked your kind Jewish neighbour, but you wanted the best for your family (school, health and work) so you'll stay out of trouble.
Many people cannot understand that because they did not live then. Germany was an excellent country to live in during 1930s and even until 1942! Where you live in a mighty country, with some sporadic bombardments...
Actually, some old people look at those days with nostalgy when "you could walk safely at streets"... You can't now.
As to Germany being a fine place to live in the 1930'es....perhaps thats true....unless of course you happen to be Jewish....or a Gypsey....or retarded....or....
Don't you understand?
I am talking about 50.000.000 people not 60.000 Jews nor 20.000 German gypsies!
I am talking about a majority! Those were the ones who lived very fine. Ask some of them and let's see if they answer that they used to live in misery in the 1930s...
HI Walt: I would have to agree with Friedrich on this. The majority probably did find Germany I nice place to live in the 30's. The US was a great place to live in the 30's also, unless you were Black or American Indian or... No country is perfect.
Friedrich.... No I dont understand. Are you saying that it is allright to murder inocent people by the thousands in order to make the rest prosper? I think where you and I disagree is that you long for the old Germany befor the World wars, and thats fine. If Hitler would have rebuit Germany and then stopped, he probley would have gotten the Nobel peace prize.....But he did not stop there, and we both know that....How can you say that the Germans did the Russians a favor by killing them, because they were cold and hungry...Thats sussposed to make it ok?...Did the Germans start the War or dident they?
I dont care if Hitler made the majority of the German people warm and comfortable, and created jobs and all that, because it was at the exspence of others.... Many others.
I dont see how anyone in the twentyfirst centry can condone what Nazi Germany did.Im not talking about the regular Army, I dont know enough about it. But I do know about the Gestapo.... I do know about the death camps....I do know about ravines all over Europe filled with men, weomon and babies who were shot, gased, hung, or buried alive by that man and his Army that you are defending.
I do not agree with Yan, or the Jewish student when they said that all German soldiers were responsible, but Hitler sure was, along with most of the German High Command, as well as most of the Officer Corp.
You and I are not on the same page. You see the "auto-bon" and "the peoples car"....what I see is untold suffering, pain and death of Inocent people, whose only crime was that they were not of the mighty "Master Race" .
I dont buy all that stuff about not "really understanding" because I wasent born then. History is History, weather it makes you uncomfortable or not. Sometimes when we peer in the looking glass, we dont like what we see.And if that image is ugly, we need to find the cause of it, remedy it, and vow to never relive it...not praise it.
Well said Steven. My thoughts exactly.
Yes, Walt. I get your point, BUT...
You are seeing History as everybody does. Even the people who do not know much about it do know about the camps and all that.
My point is that History is writen by winners, their point of view is the one in History books and it is not entirely truth.
I am not denying the facts about the horrible things my country did. But Walt, you are only watching at that. I am watching Germany's point of view, about all the horrible things made to the Germans. Please try to see that.
Wars are selfish. Every country has its own selfish porpouses and in WWII all of them had:
USSR wanted to expand comunism and make of itself the master of Eastern Europe.
GB wanted to finish at all with its major industrial anthagonist: Germany.
USA wanted all GB and France's colonies to get their independences not because they wanted everyone's freedom, because they wanted to consolidate USA's economic power there...
We and Japan also had our selfish porpouses and that is why we started this mess... I am not denying that fact either.
But human nature is selfish. We are at least animals and Darwin well said that the strongest is the one which will survive...
Why does my father has expensive cars and a huge house? Because of the many workers here in Mexico who work too hard and earn not much... Just because my father is German can be the manager and earn much more than others, perhaps smarter, but not German...
You all in USA live pretty well on whose expenses? You have worked hard but you have exploited lots of other people and countries just as all Europe did. We all have an economic power at other nations expenses. It is very bad but that is how the world is...
The point is moot because one can easily point out ALL the bad things in any countries past very easily these days.
If one HAS to talk about the Germans--then they also NEED to talk about the Russians, the Japanese, the Frainch, the British, the Mexicans, the arabs and yes--the Americans.
Every country has something very negative and is shameful that is in its past history.
Sorry I haven't responded to this, my DSL connection got burned because of a fierce thunderstorm, just got the connection up again today. Now, are you trying to say that France and Britain are responsible for WWII and the holocaust?
Yes, I've heard this excuse before. Please, refer to the situation in Russia later Soviet Union. Treaty of Brest Litovsk mean anything to you? How much land did Russia lose? How much of the population? Was there no starvation? A dozen nations fighting on its soil all against Russia, now, did the Soviet Union go on a genocidal killing spree throughout Europe and start a second world war?
And Russia had this and then some, your point doesn't stick, the Soviet Union didn't do what Nazi Germany did, why do you think that is?
And this justifies genocidal actions throughout Europe?
So you'd like to blame France and Britain? I'll go for that.
Fair enough, at one point in another all have been anti-semetic to one degree or another, but who turned a whole nation against the Jewish people, Gypsies, Communists, homosexuals, invalids? Who started a second world war and spread genocidal killings with the help of willings others throughout all of Europe and into the Soviet Union, etc?
Sure it is, Hitler gave them what they wanted: A scapegoat, and they proceeded to do what any cultured and sophisticated society would do, didn't they?
Yan, ill have to reply to you tomorrow--I just got here to the library to check email and will nt have any time till tomorrow morning.
PS, as a parting shot--How on Earth do you get out of what I posted before--that I hold England and Fraince responsible for the Holocost? Im perplexed--PS--I do have many British friends and a few Frainch friends--and I thinbk the world of them.
You blamed the treaty of Versailles...who imposed this treaty?
Yes I Do blame that treaty and you know as well as I do who imposed it.
PS, I will be giving you my answer to the other post on friday because im now running late for work--Carl.
Hi guys...All of you have made some excellent points on several frounts...Steve, I knew someone would come back with the respoce you made when I left the post. I think you are right to a point, but "the Indian thing" happened in the 19th Centry...and my Countrymen, and yours fought a terrible war, again in the 19th Centry to end the evil of slavery, but I will not get into all that here, we are talking about the 20th Centry, when the world was sussposed to be "enlightened"....Friedrich...I agree with you that much of the blame of the war can be laid at the feet of "economoics"...I mean all countrys were looking to protect their interest in the world econemy, but I think at least some of it is justified and reasonable. I disagree about the part that the United States was interested in the British Colonys. When the war ended, The British still controlled their interests, and those went on to gain their independance. The U.S. to my knowledge did not interfear in any way that I know of, nor did the British.ie.Hong Kong,Indoniesia, Palistine,India,Syria,Iraq etc.
It was not nessasaryly an easy transition, but none the less, it did come to pass.Friedrick, as you know, we dont agree on many of these issues, but I hope you know, because I think you are mostly wrong I mean no disrespect to you, and of course I realize you belive me to be the one who is wrong, and thats ok, Maybe we can both learn a little something from all this....I just wanted you to know, that I consider you one of my "forum Buddies"...and I consider all your opinions very carefully. I then rant & rave, pull my hair out and stuff like that, and say to myself " This guy is nuts"....and then fire off a post in responce ha ha.... ....later