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Myths of Pearl Harbor and the Pacific before Dec. 8th, 1941.

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by OpanaPointer, May 21, 2011.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Item: Yamamoto did NOT say "We have wakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." This is purely a device by the makers of "Tora, Tora, Tora" to provide something upbeat for American audiences at the end of the movie.

    Item: Yamamoto did NOT "attend Harvard". He took one semester of English classes as an extension student in Boston, where he got a C-, and failed to show up for the second semester.
     
  2. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Are you telling me that Hollywood would fabricate and sensationalize historic events?
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Actually, that was a dual Hollywood-Tokyo effort.
     
  4. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    A Hollywood/Tokyo Co-Conspiracy theory? Must be of the same ilk as Curtiss Lemay saying that dropping the bombs wasn't necessary.
     
  5. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member Patron  

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    I suppose the next thing you'll try to convince us of is that it is a myth that FDR knew the attack was coming and allowed it to occur in order to get the US into the war. :D:rolleyes:

    You sure know how to ruin a good conspiracy theory.
     
  6. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    I think an interesting twist would be if the US had remained neutral until the Atomic bombs came online in 1945 and then bombed the sh*t out of everything; because we all know that the Atomic bombs ended the war.

    Even better if the Marines had jumped into Tokyo with silenced StG's and sniper rifles dressed like the Waffen SS....that would be way cool!!!
     
  7. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    No, no, no, The marines would not jump in, they would be carried by Die Glocke's. any fool knows this!
     
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    From another website:

    Originally Posted by OpanaPointer [​IMG]
    The "14-part message" wasn't a declaration of war. We have the minutes of the meeting where it was decided to issue one, convened AFTER they heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor.


    Japanese Pre-war Policy and Planning

    Memoirs of Prince Konoye Fumimaro
    Premier of Japan during part of the pre-war period.



    Joint Committee Exhibit No. 8 "General survey concerning the attack on Hawaii" from Japanese sources after the war. Included are statements on the planning of the attack and force structure.



    Exhibits of the Joint Committee, Pt. 12, pp. 431-441 The "Separate Volume":
    "Combined Fleet Operations in the War Against the UNITED STATES, GREAT BRITAIN and the NETHERLANDS will be conducted in accordance with the Separate Volume. ", Yamamoto Isoruku.
    (This is the "Separate Volume" mentioned as having been destroyed in Japanese Monograph No. 97, Pearl Harbor Operations: General Outline of Orders and Plans.)



    The 14-part Message
    which was to be delivered to the U. S. State Dept. at 1 p. m. on December 7, 1941.



    Minutes of the conference
    called to write the Japanese declaration of war.
     
  9. lwd

    lwd Ace

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  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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  11. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Just caught up on the thread. Thought for a couple of posts that he might "come over to the light side" but instead ended up looking like a stuck up fool. Debating board etiquett with moderators also doesn't really suggest and claiming "free speech" are rather obvious tipoffs .... OH well. I'm still not sure why he thought you said anything that would insult the Japanese. The points you answered seemed the most logical but they were awfully shaky. Wonder if there was any thing or it was just an attempt at distraction.
     
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    "Like soy on rice" was an "insider" joke when I was at CFAY. Nothing insulting about it. I think he's used to a more combative type of forum. He did inspire me to write out the full sequence of steps for delivery of, receipt of, evaluation of, response to, etc., of the 14-part message. It takes almost as long to read as the time the Japanese allowed before the attack began. This must have stung him. I'm betting he was taught that the full forms were followed before Japan fired the first shot. It can be a shock to discover you've been lied to by people you're supposed to be able to trust.
     
  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The 14-part message was not a declaration of war. It did not break off negotiations with the US. It was not an ultimatum.

    The declaration of war is here: 269

    The 14-part message is here: [Secret]

    The timing of the delivery of the 14-part message, 1/2 hour before the attack on Pearl Harbor, ensured that it would have no effect on the attack. For a warning to occur based on that message the following events would have had to happen:

    Japan delivers note on time.
    Hull reads note.
    Hull responds to Nomura and Kurusu.
    They reply, etc.
    Hull talks to FDR, explains note.
    FDR correctly interprets this as a war warning.
    FDR advises SecWar and SecNav to alert all forces.
    SecWar and SecNav compose warning message.
    Warning messages are handled through military channels, if available, to all commands.
    Local commanders assimilate warning message and act properly.

    On the other hand, if the US had acceded to every demand in the 14-part message:

    Japan delivers note on time.
    Hull reads note.
    Hull responds to Nomura and Kurusu.
    They reply, etc.
    Hull talks to FDR, explains note.
    FDR agrees to completely change US policy without consulting Congress.
    FDR communicates this to Hull.
    Hull explains things to Nomura and Kurusu.
    They discuss any fuzzy details.
    Nomura and Kurusu return to their embassy to contact Tokyo.
    (Originally they were ordered to destroy all codes, but got permission to retain one low level code.)
    Somehow they get the information to Tokyo.
    Gaimudaijin receives message.
    Foreign Minster interprets message correctly.
    Foreign Minster goes to Prime Minister and explains message.
    Prime Minister contacts SecWar and SecNav, who contact their forces to halt attack.

    In both the above cases you can see that more than 1/2 hour was needed. So the timing issue is just a farce.
     
    syscom3 likes this.

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