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Myths of the Eastern Front

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe' started by Comrade General, May 19, 2015.

  1. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    He is not even able to understand that his 4 sources are irrelevant :US are not the Northern hemisphere ,unless the borders have changed .
     
  2. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    About the influenza in Russia : in 1889 there was a severe influenza epidemic in Russia in THE SUMMER .
     
  3. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    Really.
    Hemisphere-a half of the earth, usually as divided into northern and southern halves by the equator, or into western and eastern halves by an imaginary line passing through the poles.

    Is the U.S. north or south of the equator? Or on the equator which would be equatorial (of, at, or near the equator)?

    [​IMG]

    Now note, the Equator is the line running dead center, horizontally across the map. Is the United States above or below that line?
     
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  4. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    I said : the US are not the northern hemisphere, I did not say : the US are not in the northern hemisphere .Which is not the same .Russia is also in the northern hemisphere .
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    It was a pandemic and not just restricted to Russia(cases were also noticed in Canada and Greenland), and it was first seen in late spring(May). It spread slowly during the summer months, but did not begin gathering steam until late fall through early winter of that year.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3867475/

    Not that this has anything to do with winter on the Eastern Front in 1941.
     
  6. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Wonderful. Welcome back LJAd.

    This topic has quickly sped past the German non-need of trucks and is now heading into a mire of statements regarding flu or the Northern Hemisphere, or some such.
     
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  7. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Please desist from shouting.

    Perhaps you can then explain, if this epidemic was so "severe" in "the summer", how the number of deaths actually peaked... in the winter?
     
  8. green slime

    green slime Member

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    You really do take the prize.

    As usual, you are putting words into the mouths of others.

    There is no need to "chew the cut to avoid answering this question". The answer is very obvious.

    1) Firstly: No one here has stated that it is "the cause" of any defeats. Least of all lwd. LTR.
    2) Reporting accuracy should always be questioned; it may well depend on the level of desperation at the front, as well as other factors.
    3) Flu can worsen other conditions/pre-dispositions, which are further exacerbated by cold winter weather. Bronchitis, and Asthma, to name but two examples.
     
  9. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    In post 11,one can read the following :

    By the end of the 41/42 winter,the number of frostbite victims exceeded a quarter of a million and more than 90 % were second-and third degree cases.


    This is of course leaving out the considerable number of troops that fell victim to influenza;pneunomia and trenchfoot .

    The first sentence is wrong .

    The second is unproved :it is unproved that the Ostheer was the victim of influenza and that "considerable " troops fell victim to it .

    But,my greatest objection is that the sentence is putting influenza,pneunomia and trenchfoot (which are NOT winter related) on the same level as frostbite ,which is winter related .

    That's why I gave the exemple of a influenza epidemic that started in the summer,And ,this one "1977 Russian flu pandemic" is saying the following :The Russian flu pandemic started in may 1977 .

    Pneunomia and trenchfoot are also not winter related : they also occur in the autumn .

    The same for bronchitis and asthma : these occur also in the summer:my mother was an asthma patient and suffered the whole year from asthma : not more in the winter than in the summer .


    Besides,again (but some will still ignore it ) : the more one is talking about frostbites,etc,the more one is making own-goals : given the circumstances,the Germans did not bad (and that's an euphemism) in the 41/42 winter : they withstood the Soviet attack.Thus that's indicating that all these frostbite stories are much exaggerated,and that the winter had only a slight influence on the outcome of the fighting .

    To those who are delighting in these horror stories: 250000 frostbite cases,no winter clothing,the winter of the century,influenza,... : if it was that bad,why were the Soviets not in Berlin on 1 may 1942?

    Would the answer not be : it was not that bad,in fact:it was not bad at all .
     
  10. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    NO : this is only the repetition of the claims of Manstein,Guderian,Rauss,and the other members of the gang :distance,weather,German logistical system and generalship on both sides did NOT stop the Germans .

    Weather : the summer did not stop the Germans .

    Distance : idem :did distance stop the Allied forces in september 1944?

    The German logistical system did not prevent the Germans to go to Moscow and Stalingrad .

    Generalship on both (ha !) sides did not stop the Germans : besides : generalship is only an euphemism for " the stupid Hitler who spoiled the German chances" :the generals on the both sides were on the same level .
    If the Soviet regime had collapsed ,nothing of this would have stoped the Germans : not the weather, not distance,not the German logistical system, not generalship on both sides .
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    If you consider how the Germans got replaced the lost men and vehicles etc the answer is practically none or nowhere close to 100%. The same troops fought since June 22nd. It does not really matter in my opinion about the winter or influenza or whatever, they were losing men and nothing gained from home country that would be called reinforcements. After 6 months that must be pretty tough on the units to attack further on.
     
  12. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    On this I can agree,but,not on the claim that the winter of 41/42 was one of the elements that stopped Germany (from what : advancing/defeating the SU ?),because this claim implies that without the winter( an absurd idea) the Germans could have defeated the SU ,something which is not true :the German operation plan had failed in july (source : Germany and WWII tome IV P 988) and it was over .The only thing one can say about the winter was that it was making things even worse (if that was possible) .The backbone of the Ostheer had been broken in august,when it lost 200000 .men .

    The relative power ratio between the Ostheer and the Red Army was worsening from june 22 on to the disadvantage of the Germans,and the point of no return was reached in the summer ..

    Even if Blau had succeeded,it would not have resulted in a German victory ,besides Blau failed after a few weeks .

    The critical (only critical ) period for Germany (where it had a small chance to win) /for the SU (where it could lose) was the summer of 1941.Germany failed in that period (the reasons who were claimed to have stopped the Germans did not apply for that period,)and all the rest = insinuating that after the summer Germany still had a chance,but that it failed because of extranatural reasons=general winter and his family),all this are only the post war excuses from people as Guderian,Manstein,Halder,etc,who sadly enough are still believed in some countries by people who still are convinced of the superiority of the WM .
     
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  13. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Most of us have grown up in a mechanized world and perhaps have a hard time realizing that the great majority of German troops (infantry) in the Soviet Union were almost totally dependent on horses to transport everything from their supplies to their artillery. Even officers got around to their sub-units mostly by horseback. Each division had farriers and veterinarians. These horses died like flies during the first winter due to cold, lack of food and extreme stress. The death of these horses had a tremendous impact on the fighting ability of the German infantry. Nutritional requirements go up in winter, not down so if you're not getting enough chow your ability to ward off the cold is compromised, not to mention the fact that you're starving and have little energy. This also compromises ones immune system so resistance to flu, and other diseases.
     
  14. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Germany was not prepared for a long war, never. Once the war continued more than the 2 months Hitler promised, his army was in serious trouble. To me also the fact Hitler changed the object from Leningrad to Ukraine and then back to Moscow was also a major strain on the vehicles and train movement, and men. The Japanese delegate informed homeland Germany was not winning the war in August which to me seems was one of the reasons what direction the Japanese took. Without the shallow water torpedo project succeeding the Japanese would have been in another problem going to Pearl Harbor, with only bombers doing the job.
     
  15. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    AGC survived the winter offense because Stalin ordered a general offense on all fronts, instead of concentrating on one. The objectives were also beyond the very limited Soviet capacity. If Zhukov's plan had been done then the losses of AGC would have been much greater. I don't know if it could have decisive due to Soviet weakness.
     
  16. Richard71

    Richard71 Member

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    It seems to me that Hitler's weakness (and, in fairness, he had strengths too) in the East was that he never matched his resources to his aims. He over-reached himself in offence and often accepted the need to retreat only when it was too late. He could not have a reserve force and leave it as a reserve; he had to use it, like a spendthrift with money.
    Kursk is the well-known example; why was the offensive thought necessary? Why not leave the salient as just that, adjust the front line to reduce length and release forces and husband one's strength?
     
  17. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    It was mainly the OKH (Zeitzler) which was demanding Citadelle,with as arguments

    that a big Soviet summer offensive was approaching

    that the German reserves were not strong enough to stop this offensive

    that these reserves were also needed in Italy (where the fascist regime was collapsing) and in France (where probably in 1944 the Allies would try to land)

    that the the only possibility was to start a preventive attack in the East to "neutralize" the SU and that afterwards the reserves could be committed elsewhere .
     
  18. Richard71

    Richard71 Member

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    ^ That's a good point.
    Might it be argued however that the situation on the eastern front in the summer of 1943 was a consequence of Germany having made poor choices in 1941 and 1942? The lunge for Maikop, Stalingrad, etc in the summer of 1942 was very risky and not adequately resourced. It was a gamble (even without the disaster at Stalingrad that was to come).
     
  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Hitler was also facing political problems. Turkey,Hungary all were more close to the Russian Colossus. Hitler thought that victory in Kursk would be the beacon shining light to the world of his power. He also believed that whatever the result, the Red Army could not attack until summer 1944, if his army failed to destroy the Kursk salient.
     
  20. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    I don't see that the Germans made poor choices in 1941/1942: after the failure of Barbarossa in the summer of 1941,they were condemned to take risky choices,because:time was running against them .They were forced to gamble ,even the operation plan for Barbarossa was a gamble that only could succeed if a miracle happened .
     

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