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Nagumo hanging around Oahu????

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by ickysdad, Aug 14, 2009.

  1. ickysdad

    ickysdad Member

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    How long could Nagumo & Kido Butai have hung around Oahu after bombing Pearl Harbor? I've seen elsewhere it being stated that his tankers were almost full after getting back to Japan or at least had plenty of oil left. It's also been stated that the Japanese could also refuel their DD's from their BB's,CV's and Crusiers so how true is that?
     
  2. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

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    The Japanese would not have been capable of staying very long. I'm not sure how much fuel they had for the ships but on the return trip to Japan following Pearl he was ordered to send two of the carriers to destroy installations on Wake. Nagumo replied that his fleet was short on aviation fuel. Without that fuel there could be no CAP and the carriers would have had to return regardless of how much fuel the rest of the fleet had left. My guess would be no more than three to five days, but of course there is little reason to linger.
     
  3. John Dudek

    John Dudek Member

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    While only 29 Japanese Aircraft were shot down during the Pearl Harbor attack, there was a much greater number of aircraft that were damaged enough to warrant a sizeable amount of time in the repair shop. Some sources quote up to a quarter of the Japanese attacking aircraft needing repairs, either minor or major.
     
  4. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    Add another 10 to 20 that were lost thru non combat accidents during the 7 December ops and the CAP & recon flights seperate from the raid. 2% to 3% losses through accident damage was normal during carrier ops in the 1930s & through 1941. The rate seems to have gone up after combat operations started in December.
     
  5. Glenn239

    Glenn239 Member

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    This is suspected because one of Nagumo's orders to the unit just before the attack stipulated that if events prevented a timely rendezvous with the tanker train, each destroyer was to refuel from a specific heavy unit. Each carrier would treat its guard destroyer, and the battlecruisers would take care of the rest.

    When Yamaguchi attacked Wake, 2nd CAR DIV made a prohibitively expensive approach to the island at 30kt. It is possible that this forced Soryu and Hiryu to fuel their escorting destroyers from the carriers.

    Fuel capacity - Shattered Sword gives, for example, Hiryu's avgas storage capacity on page 471 (150,000 gallons) and 477 (134,000 gallons). Assuming the latter figure, and that a Zero burns 140 gallons/sortie with drop tank, a Val 235 gallons and a Kate 285 gallons, then flying 21 Zero, 18 Val and 18 Kates on the 7th of December cost about 12,300 gallons, leaving somewhere around 121,000 gallons remaining.
     
  6. John Dudek

    John Dudek Member

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    The War Times Journal says that while 27 Japanese aircraft were officially lost during the raid on Pearl Harbor, 74 additional Japanese aircraft received battle damage.
     
  7. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    Nagumo had cut the destroyer escort free right after the second strike began its return flight because of fuel issues. The whole Kido Butai was looking at running on fumes by the time they returned to home waters.

    The big problem wasn't using the aircraft it was simply the steaming range of the ships themselves. They were not designed to be used for a prolonged period that far from their bases.
     
  8. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    Right up to the point they were discovered and sunk
     
  9. Glenn239

    Glenn239 Member

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    The log of the Akigumo from the Pearl Harbor Papers indicates that on the 9th (8th), in her first fueling after the attack, she took on 250 tons in 90 minutes (in rough weather). She had topped up from tankers just before the attack run began on the 6th, meaning that 48hr solid steaming to and from Hawaii at about 24kt had cost the destroyer around 40% of her fuel capacity. Akigumo sailed 8,593nm during the mission (she did not joint the attack on Wake), and the overall duration was about 27 days. Akigumo used 1,079 tons of fuel between Hitokappu Bay and Hiroshima Bay.
    5th CAR DIV performed the mission virtually without refueling, as probably did Kaga.
    3rd Bat DIV also went to Hawaii and back with less than 2,000 tons taken from tanker.
     
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  10. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    That covers fuel. What about ammunition? Specifically what are the numbers for bombs and torpedos remaining after the air strike/s?
     
  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    That's why they sortied a tanker to refuel the Midway Bombardment Group. It was the message that tanker sent that lead to one of the really funny moments in Stinnett's book. He sees the longitude and latitude given, and decides that the position is just north of Hawaii, which it would have been if he had been able to distinguish E from W. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Glenn239

    Glenn239 Member

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    Hard data on IJN carrier aviation logistic capacities for some classes here:

    http://www.combinedfleet.com/kojinshavolume6.pdf

    Unryu’s aviation stores capacity is on page 55, and forms the basis for the estimates given below for Soryu and Hiryu, as Unryu is a close relative to Hiryu.

    Shokaku’s stores capacity is on page 7.

    Akagi and Kaga’s data is speculative, based on the ratio of avgas carried on these ships vs. the Shokaku.

    Carrier......Torp.....800kg...500kg.....250kg......60kg
    Shokaku....45........60.........60.........312.........512
    Hiryu..........36.......36.........36.........240.........360
    Akagi.........40.......55.........55..........284........466
    Kaga..........42.......56.........56..........292........480


    Expenditure at Pearl Harbor was roughly as follows:

    Carrier…Torp…..800kg…250kg….60kg
    Skok…….0……….0………54…….162*
    Zuik……..0……….0……….54…….162*
    Akagi……12……...15……...18……..0
    Kaga……..12……...15……..27……..0
    Soryu……..8……….10…….18……..0
    Hiryu……..8……….10……..18…….0

    * - assumes 1x250kg plus 6x60kg loadouts for B5N2's, anti-airfield supression. B5N2's could also carry 2x250kg or 1x800kg. I don't think the 5th CAR DIV used either of those load options during the battle.
     
  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    We have a report on IJN refueling in the pipeline. If real life didn't keep getting in the way . . .
     

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