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Nazi "Last Ditch" Rifles

Discussion in 'Small Arms and Edged Weapons' started by KodiakBeer, Oct 29, 2016.

  1. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    The Nazi Party (distinct from the Wehrmacht) ordered a number of crude rifle designs at the end of the war to arm the Volksturm units raised by the district Gaulieters. All of these were designed so that the various components could be made by small machine shops, outside the normal arms industry. Mostly, these rifles aren't very interesting, just Mausers of extremely crude design; stamped receivers, glued plywood furniture, etc.

    However, I found this one below quite fascinating. The narrator explains that they are mistakenly called the VG1-5 because of mistranslated documents at the end of the war. The Germans called it the MP-507 or just the Gustloff Rifle. In any case, they made about 10,000 of them, so that's a significant enough number to be interesting to me.

    It's semi-automatic and fires the 8mm 'Kurz' round used in the STG series. The delayed blowback action described in the vid seems a bit risky to me with a high pressure cartridge, but then I'm not an engineer so maybe it's just fine. Or, considering that the Party wasn't very concerned about the welfare of its militia units, maybe they didn't care if it eventually blew up in some old guys face?

    I found this very interesting, and hope you do as well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUeYVcredOc
     
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  2. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Related video. Crazy bastard actually shooting one of these rifles!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anW7HWFlueg
     
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  3. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Man I thought the Sten was a basic and dangerous gun. This disposable despair one beats it all . I'd be afraid to have it explode or jammed and I suppose that a long time use would heat up the canon pretty soon too. As you said they were made to delay the enemy in a couple of skirmishes. One way would have having a curious captor try one ....
     
  4. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    When you think about the design as shown in the vid, it seems to be a matter of "will work in principle." But, considering the stresses of an actual firearm it just seems damned dangerous. What will work on a pistol caliber subgun is not necessarily still workable when scaled up to a high pressure rifle cartridge. None of this metal is heat treated and all of it (I assume) is drawn from stocks better used for bicycles.

    I note that the guy in the second vid only shoots a few rounds. I wouldn't shoot a single one.
     
  5. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Recycled bicycle tubes :cool: .
     
  6. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Member

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    If you've had the pleasure of holding a good ol' ex. N.I. Troubles' paramilitary "homemade submachinegun" let alone firing one - I've held one but not fired it - you'd realise that the VG1-5 is a luxury item!!! LMAO
     
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  7. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    All of these last ditch firearms were sophisticated and well made compared to the FP-45 Liberator pistol. Which was distributed by a wealthy country with no fear of an occupation. Meant to be used by brave people resisting the Nazis.

    The Brits used the Sten-Gun because it does the job when handled the right way. I never heard of thousands of british soldiers killed by exploding Stens. The Grease Gun was very crude too. Don't know about the VG1-5, but all of these simple and crude weapons were useable when you know what you are doing.

    When feared an invasion, the Brits equipped their men with the Northover-Projector. I would never fire such a thing. Nor would i fly a Natter-Rocket-Fighter. These things killed even experienced guys.
     
  8. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    The difference between this rifle and subguns (and pistols) is the pressure and amount of powder (potential energy) contained in the cartridges. A 9mm has a case capacity of about 13 grains and a max pressure of 35,000 PSI. The 8mm Kurz (7.92x33) has a case capacity of 34 grains loaded to 49,000 PSI.

    In effect, and very roughly, you have about 50% more pressure and triple the amount of powder to make something fail in the action using a rifle cartridge vs a pistol cartridge. Every time you fire that rifle you're stressing all that soft metal and tack welds, and doing so far more than with a relatively tame pistol cartridge. No doubt you'd have a bad day should a Sten gun fail, but you'll have a much worse day if one of these rifles fails.
     
  9. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Ok, i didn't know that. Didn't even watch the video.
    All these Volkssturm-Rifles weren't important, they didn't even found enough men to fight with the existing weapons. Usually they used old bolt action rifles, often french types they collected in summer 1940. These rifles were old but not especially dangerous when handled properly. Lebels were used for 50 years, you just had to know how to operate such a rifle.

    When something is old and often used, then it is likely more safe than some brandnew cheap crap. But you had to know what you are doing and this might have been the biggest problem for those guys. I can't imagine that there were many experienced guys left as teachers.
     
  10. Dave55

    Dave55 Member

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    A wise ass crack about the United States? Care to explain why you said it?

    The Liberator pistol was a single shot that fired a .45 ACP PISTOL cartridge through an un-rifled barrel.and was meant to be fired once or twice to allow a person to take an enemy soldier's weapon. I have never heard of them being unsafe, Have you?

    The VG1-5 is unsafe and very dangerous because the chamber pressure of the Kurz greatly exceeds the safe working pressure of any blow back action ever, before or since.
     
  11. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    I agree with what you said. However, to play devil's advocate: I've read reports that there is inherent danger in the manner in which the Liberator's cartridges are stored in the grip. The grip is hollow, and spare cartridges are jammed (effectively) as tight as possible into the grip. It is said that the harsh recoil upon firing causes a (however small) risk of one or more cartridges stored in the grip being set off. I can't vouch for that but have heard it stated in several separate mediums and by different individuals. Seeing as how the Liberator was hardly used (if used at all) for its intended purpose this is likely a moot point.
     
  12. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    "Really not that safe to shoot"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERSQo6cmTQ
    I mentioned the FP-45 as an example for a cheap weapons, meant to shoot a couple of shots. Were these Volkssturm weapons meant to be used a long time?

    Were these VGs accurate enough to hit anything? Regular german firearms were highly respected, maybe the engineers had found a way to make them as safe as possible.
     
  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Yes, the FP-45 was a cheap weapon...every one admits that, as the "pistol" only cost about $3.50 to manufacture.

    However, you miss the point of the two weapons...The FP-45 was only expected to fire a few shots, preferably from behind and at point blank range, to get you a better weapon, and was never intended to be used in open combat. Whereas the Volkssturmgewehr rifles were for actual infantry combat.
     
  14. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Although personally I think the Sten was rather horrible, I haven't read too much about them being overly dangerous to the user except in for two specifics ; -

    - They were very susceptible to jamming due to dust or sand ( which, agreed, could be very dangerous to the user at the wrong moment.. )

    - On earlier versions ( ie pre-Mk V ) it could be rather easy to allow one's finger to enter the ejection slot whilst firing. OUCH !

    The VG weapons are interesting ; of course in early 1945 Germany resorted to some desperate measures ( eg Heinkel Salamander etc ) and I've seen somewhere a photo of an aircraft 20mm cannon mounted on an ad-hoc, steel-wheeled carriage. Now, that must have been an 'experience' to fire.......
     
  15. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Yes, for the Volkssturm. The Volkssturm units are formed when the enemy approaches, they weren't regular units. I'm not an expert, maybe these weapons are good enough to fire a couple of magazines safely, maybe they were unsafe all the time. But an unsafe weapon is still better than no weapon at all when someone tries to kill you.

    The Sten Gun tends to jam when hold by the magazine. Handled properly they work usually. Dirt and sand are problems for most weapons, aren't they?
     
  16. Dave55

    Dave55 Member

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    "They fired one round from each gun. They fired randomly selected ones to fire fifty rounds. The welds would start coming apart. They're really not that safe to shoot." Nice try taking quote out of context. He is describing a destructive test, which is common in all types of manufacturing. Not dangerous when used for designed purpose.

    So still wondering what "Which was distributed by a wealthy country with no fear of an occupation" has to do with anything under discussion. A wealthy county, who lost over 400,000 of its people during WWII, by the way.
     
  17. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    That sounds entirely reasonable, but for a different reason. When you reload magnum revolver cartridges you are warned to use a heavy 'factory crimp' and a slug with a cannelure because the other slugs in the cylinder can bet be 'set back' causing wildly increased pressure when they fall under the hammer. For example you can't use 9mm slugs in a .357 because there is no cannelure to prevent that set back. No doubt, the extremely violent recoil of a tiny liberator might cause the same problem; that only becomes evident when you transfer one of those set back slugs to the chamber and pull the trigger.
     
  18. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Nice try taking quote out of context. English is not my mother tongue but i understand what Hickok tells us in the video.
    The replicas are a little bit better and even they are not recommended to shoot.

    The guy from the first video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvEHu0O-5nw
    "outright not safe to shoot"
    He fires the VG1-5, but you don't see him firing the FP-45 you called "safe".

    The Volkssturm-Weapons were made by a then destructed country with the fear of occupation. It is understandable that they tried everything to produce weapons as simple as possible and that gun safety isn't the most important argument for a weapon design in a situation like this.
    Have you ever asked yourself what would have happened to a resistance fighter who tried to kill a nazi with the FP-45 and it explodes or jams?
     
  19. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    It's all the same thing.

    The Brits were hard pressed and came up with the Sten, which ain't pretty but was perfectly serviceable. The Americans (though they never actually dropped them as intended) wanted a cheap "disposable" firearm for mass distribution and created the Liberator. You could also look at the PPS and PPSH for rather good blowback weapons that could be mass produced. The Polish Resistance created crude subguns in garages and sheds, and even in basement workshops in the Warsaw ghetto.

    The Gustloff however, falls into a much chancier category only because they chose a rifle cartridge instead of the pistol rounds normally used in blowback actions. This is a much more ambitious undertaking. How well they worked or how many (if any) people lost eyes or fingers in use is lost in the chaos of those last months of the war. We can only speculate on how well they worked, or really, how long they worked before the recoil began to shake them apart.

    I find them rather ingenious, considering the strange attempt at a delayed blowback with the shroud around the barrel. Perhaps that really does spread out the recoil impulse enough to make a difference, though the expert in the video discounts that.

    Personally, I find them quirky and dangerous (but interesting). But, that's just my opinion, which isn't worth much. Google 'Glock KaBoom' for an example of how a small deviation from recommended ammunition can have disastrous results even with a high quality modern design, and then consider the very shaky action in this much more powerful rifle...

    I don't want to shoot a Gustloff. I'll be 'over there' with the bandages while somebody else shoots it.
     
  20. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    [YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgOfbG3mi_0[/YOUTUBE]
     
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