New carrier of arms

Hitler had his putsch against the SA because they were becoming too big for their breeches and because the Wehrmacht wanted them out of the way before supporting Hitler. Did Hitler really need their support? Afterall, the SA numbered 1 million+ men. What would have happened if the SA successfully took over as the nations carrier of arms and merged der heere's landsers into its ranks?

 

A good one--NAY...A great one, and I will answer you tomorrow as the library is yet closing once again leaving me no time to answer

 

I have to say that I believe he did need the support of the Reischwher because althought the SA was large, it was spread throughout the nation and extremley radical. What this means is that while they did outnumber the army, they were not as centralised, poorley armed and lacked any real training. They were also far more radical than the Nazi leadership and so even Hitler did not want them to take any real power because they would have tried to do too much too fast rather than adopting Hitlers slower, almost creeping, approach to substantiating his power and carrying out the more radical properties.

 

Stefan, I totally agree and for Hitler, he made the correct decision. But, what if Hitler did make the SA the nations bearer of arms. What would have been the outcome?

 

I think had Hitler merged the SA with the Reichsheer, he definately would have had his political army without having the SS.

I do think also that having all these radicals mized in with professional soldiers--it DEFINATELY would have ruined all that the Reichsheer stood for, and DEFINATELY, the Germans and the Germans Military, would be much more hated now, as ever before--because of the political inviroment and the way the military would haev changed.

Im not saying that the individual Landser would be much more different than they actually were, but would have had a different enviroment and im sure their indoctrination would have been radically different. I think they would have been more brainwashed in their thinking as the Russians did for all their "volunteers".

The SA, outnumbered the Reichsheer, ten men to one. Hitler still needed the help from the professional military. I think the Reichsheer supported Hitler as much as they did, but only because of the size of the SA and the growing SS.

 

I too envision the SS not becoming a prominant force because of the rivalry. Also, Rohm had his own agenda and could not see him bending to Hitler's wishes as the General staff did. I do think that initially the Reichsheer would have been filled with hoodlums and gangsters but when war broke out, I think it would have evolved and may have been more fanatical if not equally to the SS. How effective would they have been is a good question. It would depend on whether they used the training based on military doctrine or on solely politics. A difficult What if.

Having said all this, I believe Hitler recognized how difficult it would have been to control an SA based Wehrmacht. So he used the support of the Reichsheer and did away with Rohm. He then was able to control both the General Staff and the Lutzer led SA.

 

Good one and I agree. Also, the SA really had no real important role after war broke out. I think they were mainly used as some sort of "service personnel" of some type. I imagine that as the Wehrmachts ranks were thinning a bit, I imaging a good many SA men were sentenced to active combat duty. I know they were used as auxillery police troops and were also used as Volkstrum.

I think even the Allgemeins SS ranks were thinned a bit, to help re-enforce the thinning Waffen SS ranks.

 

The SA had done its part for supporting Hitler and became too big mean time. So Hitler had to take measures so that it would not threaten his position-Maybe Röhm already had the same kind of Ideas? Heil Röhm?
It is also thought that Himmler was behind this telling Hitler lies on Röhm so that Himmler could get more power himself.
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In early June, 1934 Ernst Roehm (chief of staff of Germany's Sturmabteilung) had a confrontation with Hitler which reportedly lasted for nearly 5 hours. Hitler had been under the impression that forces within the SA were preparing a Bolshevist action he felt would bring only trouble for Germany. Hitler stated that Roehm left him with assurances that he would do everything possible to put things right. Hitler later felt that Roehm's real intentions were to begin preparations to eliminate him personally.

A day or two later Hitler told the SA to go on leave for the entire month of July. During this time they were not to wear uniforms or engage in parades or exercises.

On June 7 Roehm announced he was going on sick leave. Before leaving, however, he issued a warning. "If the enemies of the S.A. hope that the S.A. will not be recalled, or will be recalled only in part after its leave, we may permit them to enjoy this brief hope. They will receive their answer at such time and in such form as appears necessary. The S.A. is and remains the destiny of Germany." This statement did nothing to calm Hitler's fears

Hitler was hesitent, because he owed much of his career to the support of S.A. leaders. Goering and Himmler had scores they wanted to settle, however. They convinced Hitler that Roehm wanted to start a putsch. Hitler ordered Himmler to suppress the action in Bavaria, and Goering was to handle Berlin.

One June 28 Roehm was expelled from the German Officers League. That evening Goebbels reported "threatening intelligence". This set off a chain of events that led Hitler to believe only drastic intervention would stifle the impending revolt.

On the morning of June 30, 1934 Hitler and Goebbels arrived at the hotel in Wiesse where Roehm and his lieutenants were staying in preparation for the planned meeting with Hitler. Roehm's people were dragged out of bed, taken outside the hotel, and shot. Roehm was stripped to the waist and shot point blank by S.A. officers.

Meanwhile, approximately 150 S.A. leaders were rounded up in Berlin and shot by Himmler's S.S.

The total number of people killed in this purge varies from account to account. Shortly after the incident Hitler announced that 61 persons were shot,13 died resisting arrest and 3 committed suicide. At the Munich trial in 1957 a figure of more then 1000 was given.

Although Hitler was convinced that Roehm and the S.A. were plotting against him, there is no evidence that this was actually the case
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On June 30 1934, Ernst Röhm, the head of the SA, was arrested during the "Night of the Long Knives," the infamous purging of all the top officers of the SA. Röhm was taken to Stadelheim prison near Munich, where he was shot at high noon the next day by Theodor Eicke, an SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS, who was then the Commandant of the Dachau concentration camp. As his reward, Eicke was promoted to inspector of all the concentration camps and head of the SS Totenkopfverbände (Death's Head unit)

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/SScamp/SSHistory.html

 

Stalin's comment is reported to be: "Have you heard what has happened in Germany?? This Hitler is a great fellow - that's the way to treat one's opposition!"