No Barbarossa No bombing of Germany

If Germany had not attacked Russia they would have had plenty of planes and bombers to use for the western front. Was Barbarossa one of the factors that helped pave the way for area bombing? Would it have become total destruction for Germany and Britain if both had their bomber fleets facing each other?

The main question:

Was operation Barbarossa necessary for bombing Germany as they did?

 

Yes 40%-No 60%. ANy comments however?

 

Read Luftwaffe - Strategy for Defeat by Williamson Murray. Aopart from being one of the best books on the topic I know, it explains in great detail the reasons for the fall of the Luftwaffe, which is almost entirely due to any lack of a strategic vision or long term plan, in fact Goering specifically dismissed any kind of long-term planning or designs.

The vast redeployment of air forces to the east in 1941 obviously depleted the German air power in the West. But then again, there wa no serious bombing in 1941, and there was not much serious bombing in 1942, and German air forces proved to be enough during that year to inflict some frightful losses on the Allied Bombers.

When the Bombing threat started to become more serious, in 1943 and especially 1944, Germany re-redeployed an enormous part of their air force from Russia to the defence of Germany. This left the eastern front badly denuded of air cover and air support at a time when it was most critical.

When people talk about the effectiveness of the Allied Bombing campaign, its most tangible effect on the corse of the war was the stripping of badly needed air power from the east.

By late 1944, the problems caused by a lack of strategic vision were starting to cripple the Luftwaffe at the time when the most pressure was on it. While the Allies were turning out new aircraft, the Germans were simply upgrading their venerable ones. The Me-109 late models were significant improvements over the early models, but with essentially the same components and the sam airframe, they simply could no longer compete. Only the startling skill of many Luftwaffe pilots kept things balanced, but these were irreplaceble, and when they started to die faced with superior numbers, the poorly trained recruits could not fill the vast gaps they left.

Exactly the same as in Japan, in 1941 the best trained pilots on the planet were Japanese naval aviators, with a training regiment which put the rets of the planet to shame. But once they lost all the pilots on their primary f carriers, they could not make good those losses with new recruits.

The war in the East hastened the collapse of the Luftwaffe, but it was a doomed air force before then.

My MA thesis supervisor told mee, the allies won because they had two huge allies against Germany: Italy and Goering. Those two forces on the German side did more to cripple germany's war effort than pretty much anything else.

 

Simply, the Luftwaffe literally vanished from the face of the Earth in the Eastern Front in 1941-1943. Without those casualties all those lost aeroplanes would have been used in the West with all their experienced crews and pilots. Then it would have been incredibly difficult for the Western Allies to overwhelm and finally defeat Germany.

 

interesting last couple of posts though I disagree with some of the materials. Think it would be best to round up about 12 Luftwaffe vets flying both day and night missions to get the concensus you state.

Fried, where do you get the statistics to prove your first sentance ? you've talked with German/Soviet veterans correct ?

E

 

Dont know where you got that from. yes the Luftwaffe vanished in Russia in 1943, but not due to casualties, rather due to being transferred to other theatres. German pilots called flying in Russia the Happy time, as their opponents were flying such terrible planes, and the plilots were so poorly trained. In general, Russia was the Easiest of any theatre for the Luftwaffe, unlike, for exampe, the Mediterranian, where Germany lost about 2500 aircraft in 1943 alone.

 

Vermillion, I concur with your last posting, the reason why I questioned Fried on this.

In fact according to Luftwaffe gents I have interviewed out of IV.Sturm/JG 3 and JG 4 they had almost wished they would have been sent to the Ost front in the fall of 44 to take on the Soviets instead of the masses of B-24/B-17 formations and the hordes of P-51 escorts. They all have claimed it was easy to get a kill on the Ost front till war's end

E

 

I still do not agree with vanish as most of the ground attack gruppen were stationed in the Ost and still made a huge impact in 1945, and in fact new Fw 190 gruppen were raised flying with the deadly Panzerblitz during late 44

~E

 

Great story from an Interview with Galland a few years before his death: Apparently another german ace, not sure who, was given a new high decoration for kills from Hitler himself.

Galland protested, as he had more aircraft kills than the decorated pilot, why was he not being rewarded in the same manner? He was told in answer that the decorated pilot was stationed in the West, while Galland was in the East, and "Russian kills didnt count for as much".

 

I think you might have it backwards, Vermillion, as I recall Galland never served in the east.

At least i dont remember that when i read Der Ertzen und Der Letzen

CvM

 

The Russian pilots might have been lousy and the Germans enjoyed fighting them but if you shot one there was always three pilots coming up to replace the one you shot down.

I think Erich has seen some figures:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7143&view=previous

From June 22 to Dec 31 they lost 4653 aircraft, 3827 on the Eastern Front. From Jan 1 to June 22 1942 there were roughly 1170 planes lost in the East. According to Black cross Red Star though the figure is undoubtedly higher as records are incomplete.

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I´ll try to see some figures from my books and send them later on.

 

Don't you tell me that the Luftwaffe was unharmed until 1943! I took all thart from a book I own "History of the Luftwaffe" (will come with the right name and author later) and from my books about the Eastern Front.

The casualties during 'Barbarossa' were high, not due to Russian attacks, but accidents and ground fire. The number of bombers lost in 1941 would severely affected the campaign in 1942. Where there was not air cover enough for neither Army Group, 'A' or 'B'. And then remember that in winter 1942-1943 hundreds of German transports and converted bombers were lost above Stalingrad. Because of the winter, because of Russian ground fire and because of Russian planes. The casualties were enormously high. And if the Luftwaffe was not step-by-step banned from the air in those years, then everything I know is wrong.

Remember that in late 1941 Malta's menace seemed finished and that Hitler transferred a whole Fliegerkorps to the EAST, because of the casualties of 1941...

Maybe the Luftwaffe remained being there after 1943. But with a 1/6 inferiority. Only thanks to the German pilots skills and Russian pilots lousy training, the Luftwaffe could do the things right.

 

My bad, I was quoting the story from memory from quite a few years ago, he may not have been speaking of himself...

 

I believe you might be referring to the 1969 John Killen book, a good book on the topic, though obviously somewhat out of date. I recommend the stirling text by Williamson Murray of a few years back.

Please don’t misunderstand me, yes the Luftwaffe took a real pounding in Russia and took losses, but those were not unsupportable losses and were replaces by German Industry and the pilot program, except in several sectors, you correctly point out that Between Stalingrad and Tunesia, Germany lost much of its airlift capability.

However, Germany still had air superiority, if not air supremacy, when fighter squadrons started being withdrawn from the front and posted to the Mediterranean or the West. It was this, and not aircraft losses, that made the Germans lose air control in the space of four months in 1943 over most parts of the Eastern Front.

The Pilot training program was turning out highly qualified German pilots until the beginning of 1944 when quality started to downgrade for an assortment of reasons. Don’t forget that in 1943 alone, Germany produced over 15,000 fighter aircraft of all types alone, that’s not including Bomber, ground attack or reconnaissance. Losses in the East may have been High, but the Germans could make it up, and did. It was the withdrawal of aircraft to other fronts that caused the Germans to lose their control of Russian airspace.

 

One must remember that our beloved Göring in 1942 for the campaign in Caucasus/Stalingrad sent almost all the crews of pilot teaching centers to battle and as well in Stalingrad´s case emptied the centers again of these veteran pilots to their deaths.No wonder the standard of pilots must have gone down...

These are the phases I know this happened in litterature on a large scale but probably later on several times.



And again the number of Russian planes is totally devastating!

"As factories in the Soviet Union had to be moved to the east, it was not until the following year that the Red Air Force was able to build up its resources. A total of 8,000 aircraft were built in 1942. This was increased to 18,000 in 1943 and 30,000 in 1944. "

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWredair.htm

Plus the lend-lease planes...

 

After 1943 large groups of German bombers, Stuka squadrilles nor transport planes (and their crews) were seen again over Europe.

You're right, planes and pilots from the fighter gruops were transferred to the West so they got killed by the Western Allies. While in Russia one or two aces kept shooting down hundreds of Russian planes.

The point is that after 1943 the Luftwaffe in the East was equipped almost only with fighters. The ground support units were scarce. That means that fatal blows had been delivered to the Germans. Maybe they produced 15.000 planes in 1943, but most of them were transferred to the West and were lost there. Germany couldn't replace those losses, nor in the East nor West.

 

While this wasn't the main question, I thought I'd mention this.

If the massed air forces of the Axis and Allies were set against one another, the destruction would certainly be terrible. However, it seems to me that given the nature of those air foces would mean the destuction would be slightly one sided. This would be because the vast majority of the Luftwaffe's bomber aircraft throughout the war were two-engined machines, while the US 8th Air Force and RAF Bomber Command had much heavier aircraft available such as the Lancaster, Stirling, Halifax, and the American B-17's , and B-24's, so the Allies would have a distinct advantage in striking power. The Allies also had an advantage in long-range fighters.

[ 10. August 2003, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Greenjacket ]

 

where the heck do you guys get these stats ?!

geezo ! U forget the masses of Night and Day Schlachtgruppen on the Ost front far outweighing what was on the west since ground attack was carried out by the fighter gruppen in most cases in Europe.
You have many twin enigine Heinkel and Ju 88 Recon and bomber forces availabel to you as well.

for your records....

JG 52, over 11,000 kills
JG 51, over 8500 kills about 500 in the west
JG 54, over 9600 kills about 400 in the west

this is just three examples. During January 1945 the last battles east and over Berlin brought most of the fighter gruppen to the Ost front including portions of the killer jet unit JG 7.

~E

 

However, there were thousands of Stormoviks making life impossible to the Panzer crews...

And the Luftwaffe failed completely to let the General Staff know that millions of troops were being deployed in the flanks of the German VI Army in autumn-winter 1941 and of course, failed to see that two million men and thousands of tanks were deployed in front of Army Group Centre ready for 'Bagration'. Thanks to the 'strong' Luftwaffe's reports, a whole armoured corps - the only mobile reserve of Army Group Centre - was transferred to the South were fake Soviet troops were gathering...

 

Fried are you talking to me or Vermillion ? If to me your statements are irrelevent.

I was pointing out to you both that the Luftwaffe fighter force was still a viable force and could take it to the Soviets at will even up till may of 45. The Il-2's did not hamper the Panzer crews as you imagine. MT yes.......