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No Kursk ,No battle of Berlin in 45??????

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe February 1943 to End of War' started by Machine Gun Nest 1985., Jun 1, 2006.

  1. Heartland

    Heartland Member

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    The Panther-Wotan line was certainly planned, but as far as I know it was mostly a theoretical product by this stage, apart from benefitting from natural protection. Also it wasn't that close to German, rather along the Dniepr.

    Oh look a map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther-Wotan_line
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    On the Panther line from the source:

    "The order was signed for its construction on 11 August 1943...The line was only partially completed when a general withdrawal was attempted on 15 September."

    Definitely you could not build anything really in that time period that could be considered a true defensive line. Again Hitler´s belief that preparing anything "too early" would lead to the collapse of the front led to even bigger losses....
     
  3. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Erich im going to agree with Za on this one. It was Hitlers idea to launch operation Zitadelle the soviets just happend to find out about it and knowing where the germans would strike built up their defences. The closes thing i can imagine that you are thinking off when you say " pulling the might of German armour into the open", is letting the Germans attack first and hitting them with a counterattack when they are out of breath. Also i wouldnt exactly call Kursk a slugfest for luftwafe considering the fact that they lost over 3000 planes. This made it much easier to control the skies of europe for the allies. Overall the defeat at kursk completely disable the German war machine in the east. From that point on the Germans were only going one way BACK! I would say that calling the battle of kursk a draw is alittle unfair.
     
  4. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    3,000 a/c > ?? don't think so friend, the opposite actually occured for the Soviet air defences and yes it was a slugfest, the Soviet armor was so weak they could not counterattack and stop the SS panzerkorps from retreating and deploying to Italy and the 2nd Ss and 3rd SS pulled back to other posistions, the Das REich formed behind the Mius and slaughtered the revitalized Soviet armor divisions upon their attack.

    there are so many books even new ones this year and in the future still meddling in old myths.

    As to knowing the proper placement of the attack(s) it was planned via a triple threat as we call it in the German Stab and it worked quite well to a point. Warnings wer issued to advnace in a different direction for the southern portion of the Wehrmacht but the warnings were not heeded. The northern portions of which nearly 3/4's of this thread presumes was on it's own and suffered considerable losses and this is where I differiniate. Confused ?
     
  5. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Come on, Slo, 3000 German planes lost? What source do you have for this?

    Erich, if I add my 2 kopeks worth, you are misreading things a bit. Yes, the Kursk defensive operations were no piece of cake for the Soviets (despite my usual propaganda! [​IMG] ).

    The fact that IInd SSPzK was witdrawn was something out of the Soviet control, granted, but (but!) the fact is that the Mius operation was launched according to plan precisely in order to have the Germans remove forces from the Kursk region which they did. You rightly say SSDR excelled, and it was a disaster for the Soviets, but it was a diversion and it served its purpose. The Mius operation was not meant to win the war there and then, it was just to relieve the Kursk area of any forces in prelude to Operation Rumiantsev, the long before planned counter-offensive in the Belgorod-Kharkov direction, just as the Kutusov operation (on the North Kursk Sector against AGCentre had been planned beforehand).

    (I'd like to reply to your last paragraph, but I would appreciate if you could rephrase it as your intent is not too clear...)
     
  6. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    my mistake guys over 2000 planes were destroyed in the battle ( did more research ) if fact over 200 planes were lost in the first day of battle.
    This is not to say that the soviets didnt take huge casualties. They lost a huge number aswell.


    And Erich i wouldnt exatcly call soviet armore weak. A t-34 medium tank could penetrate a tiger head on with new 85mm barrel and im not even going to mention the IS series which could pentrate a tiger over 1000 yards away! Yes i know they were built in 44' Cant reall say that about any other allied tanks in the war. Especially when talking about the sherman!

    By the way guys my sources are in 2 languages,

    Alexander Wrath was an american author who lived in Russia during the outbreak of the war and wrote a book on the conflict titled Russia at war. Great book very accurate for the most part but yes its questionable points as due most novels on the conflict.
     
  7. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Though I can imagine that the figure of total German planes were at 2000 those are the figures let out in the west. In the east the figure show slightly higher numbers.

    So I can understand why and where you get your doubts.
     
  8. Jaeger

    Jaeger Ace

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    Erich

    The battle was hardly a draw. Given operational goals it was a failure for the Germans.

    As to the manpower and equipment lost. The Germans couldn't afford it. The Red Army could.

    Even the elite SS divisions did not tip the scales for Germany. No matter what reports or stories of tank aces killing x-number of enemy equipment, or advancing fast and deep. It was local events. The larger picture speaks for itself.
     
  9. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Thank you Jaeger!
     
  10. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Speaking of myth's Erich this article tells exactly what the west such as youself think about the " Ivan " and his contribution to the war. Read it, i think you will find a lot of similarities between your opinions and facts to the ones that the author writes about in this article of how the west views the Ivan. The countries that were liberated by the russians and even Germans that I have spoken to disagree with your views very much.
     
  11. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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  12. Fortune

    Fortune Member

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    that was one heck of a battle, can you imagine....2000 planes? with losing 200 a day....
    all i can say is...wow
     
  13. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    The Kursk operation was for the Germans a total disaster and it goes a long way to understanding the Soviets greater victory in 1944, the German army was not in any kind of position to launch a major offensive at Kursk.
     
  14. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    hmmmm an article on a russian site, interesting

    ok first where do we get the 200 a/c from ?, Soviet or and German ? also 200 a/c a day GErman or Soviet or both ?

    my statements were regarding the south salient only and I apoligize to all if this was misunderstood and I do beleive I was.

    I can not think of one German veteran nor familie mameber nor GErman freind that lioved in Eastern Germany to the Elbe that were glad the Soviets advanced and took over German space. in fact quite the opposite. slon, I lost 3 relatives on my mothers side in the Heer serving on the Ost front and youngest was enroute home from a Gulag and died enroute back home to the Pfalz. In his journals what there are of them he was beaten starting with his capture on a daily basis for "fun". War can be and is the Sh**'s

    Disaster for the Germans no doubt, the rolling Wehrmacht due to the stab stupididty could never regain what is was in 41-42 if it was anything to begin with. i firmly beleive after interviewing about 5-6 vets that fought on the southern spher that in that area the battle drew a draw. yes the books say otheriwse but I like to get an overall balance to say..........this is what I have done with the air war and web-site that I hel[p run but that is another story. Not trying to be a revisionist which I have been called many times, just one that is after the "real truth"

    Za my comments made on third party were the behind the scenes secret dealings and sent back to Russia advizeing the Soviet general staff as the Germans intentions even with the lower ranks feeling that the country was not in their favour and the new Tiger wonder weapons at their backs the feeling of being overhwlmed and just slugging it out was all to honned deep into the Landsers mind.........geez this sounds like a nam repeat. Go get em Tiger we are right behind you so the General stab says.........and in reality, you are given so much time to accompiosh your mission(s) and will not have any backup to support you. Yikes de-ja vue

    make sense ? probably not
     
  15. Jaeger

    Jaeger Ace

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    Erich

    Sorry to hear about the lost relatives, but during the 5 year occupation, my village had 13 killed because they didn't adhere to the commandments of Josef Terboven. (+7 lost at sea and two killed in the '40 campaign.) And I guess anyone from the 'sub races' countries would vouch for me when I say that we did not enjoy our 'visitors'.

    As to talking to vets for a perspective of a battle... My grandad fought in the '40 campaign here in Norway and experienced the Claymore operation in Lofoten.

    The first hand experience is quite different from an official raport. Not implying that my grandad is right and official raports are wrong. He defeated the paras at Dombås, but we lost the campaign.
     
  16. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Jaeger how well I know that the official docs are quite differnt than chatting with the vets. sure cross examination does help and is needed to accept a total picture of the battle/campaign and war.

    I can only try to understand what it was like to have the invaders in your backyard. I have been told by reltaives in Germany that I am sure lucky to live in a time like I do now.........I'm not so sure of that but tyranny is hell in any perspective and applaud what the Soviets, and Allies in the west did to stop the German juggernaut on the field of battle. My relatives have all said they were wrong their country run by a fool to push us ever and ever into a pit they could not get out. As my relatives still living are farmers and vineyard owners/employees even during the war, all they wanted to do was try and carve out an existance, as many throughout Europe and Russia.
    By the way I also lost two other relatives that were pilots in the Luftwaffe .......
     
  17. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    my family too fought in the war. grandfather in the last days of Stalingrad who lost a thumb from shrapnel and my other Grandfather fought in the opening days of Battle for Berlin and was was killed.
     
  18. Fortune

    Fortune Member

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    thats interesting, that has to stink...losing ones thumb to shrapnel...
     
  19. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    yea tell me about it. He always joked about it though, I guess now I can see why.
     
  20. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    It is very interesting for us to speak at such liberty of these events, but they certainly were pure hell for all those involved at the sharp edge, combatants and most especially civilians who could not simply defend themselves. All this finally because of the madness of one.
     

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