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No Kursk ,No battle of Berlin in 45??????

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe February 1943 to End of War' started by Machine Gun Nest 1985., Jun 1, 2006.

  1. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    one of the biggest probs for the Wehrmacht and it is highly overlooked is the Recon roles had not been pursued either on the ground or in the air as it should have been. Kursk for Germany failed right from the start and not because of the in-depth Soviet AT defenses............. the kleine Führer again proved again his inept ability to lead

    E ~
     
  2. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Agree completely.
     
  3. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    Erich, I find it hard to believe that much as I dislike him the Führer had anything to do with the lack of information collected either by ground or aerial troops or problems in transmitting and processing said information. The ultimately responsible organisation for this job was Fremde Heere Ost (GenMaj Reinhard Gehlen) Abteilung Fremde Heere – Wikipedia

    Also bear in mind that Soviet maskirovka (operational security, camouflage, active anti-observation measures) was especially strong for this campaign.

    We can't simply blame it all on the Führer, even he was not totally convinced of the benefits of Zitadelle as he said so himself to Guderian.
     
  4. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

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    How about most of it?:D
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Didn´t Hitler simply ignore everything Gehlen told? Or even what the other sources mentioned for example the Red Army attacking in the Stalingrad area. I think Hitler even called them lies. Everything AH did not like was "lies". I´m not saying Gehlen was exceptionally good I´m saying any piece of info he gathered Hitler called them all lies because they did not say the German army was winning easily.

    Wolff

    General Karl Wolff

    However, once Gehlen came into the meeting with the Fuehrer in the Chancellery, and after informing Hitler that, despite seventeen months of fighting since the start of (Operation) Barbarossa, and the six or seven million killed or captured Soviets, we could expect a resurgence in the spring. He was especially frightening with his estimates of future partisans we could expect to encounter. Hitler threatened to have him placed in a sanitarium if he ever spouted such nonsense again, and threw him out. This was November 1942 I believe, and General of Fighters [Adolf Galland, [Rudolf von] Falkenhahn, and [Hans] Baur were there, along with Goering, Himmler and several others whom I cannot remember. It has been a long time. Gehlen always told the truth as he saw it and infuriated Hitler on several occasions, such as his denouncing key individuals and calling certain gauleiters incompetent, blaming much of the problem on them.
     
  6. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    I'm not contradicting you, was just responding to Erich that Adolf had nothing to do with the actual collection and interpretation of intelligence. Adolf of course as you say as supreme commander chose not to "give proper regard" to FHO's information as is documented, but that's another matter.
     
  7. Chuikov64th

    Chuikov64th Member

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    Yes, I know this. The battle to the south of Kursk (Prokhorovka) stopped the Germans but did not cost either side greatly, the Germans paid dearly in the latter half of July and August though.

    I was being too specific.
     

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