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Northop P61-B "Black Widow"

Discussion in 'Aircraft' started by Gebirgsjaeger, Aug 15, 2010.

  1. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    I ve seen an assault to an german train on video and how the Loc is exploded, heavy stuff. You wrote that the 425th had to make ground attacks, how were they evaluated as successful or not?

    Ulrich
     
  2. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    they recorded it, sent back to base, and the use of gun camera footage as the units seem to carry them onboard. some have said these were day time attacks but I see no reason through the reports that they were, they may have been made around dusk but the copies of reports that I made I do not see times for taking off or landing for the ground attack work on the Autumn dates. will try an additional source to see. Even at night the rail centers of communication and freight were so busy with lights that much was lit up for the Widow crews to see, same goes for Intruding Mosquito's-RAF

    yes confirmed now the 425th nfs were flying night intruder raids
     
  3. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    the 425th nfs did not fly 4 October 1944 due to terrible dense ground fog/no operations the same applied for the 5th of October though # 39 Woolley flew off as the single Widow to 10/11,000 feet but was soon recalled back to base due to fog rolling in.
    no operations the following eve on the 6th due to rain which was operation # 48.

    the 422nd nfs sister unit was also tasked with Intruder ground attacks against German held positions but the term changed to "Gangster" for the 422nd nfs. both US NFS were placed under Tactical air command. Operation "A" # 57 for the 422nd nfs remains negative - 0. ah but what follows the next evening of October 1/2, 1944 ~
     
  4. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Thanks Erich, its always interesting to read the reports! And now i have to stay tuned for the October 1/2 1944........

    Ulrich
     
  5. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    422nd nfs October 1/2 1944 Defensive Patrol, under GCI control

    operation # 45 A 57B

    8 P-61's

    # 47 Ernst 0 E/W/S of Liege visual on 1 B-24 at 24,000 ft
    # 94 Romens 0 E. of Aachen visual on another P-61
    # 34 James 0 2 Bogeys and 1 P-61, one aircraft fired on him but was lost off the GCI scope south and west of Luxembourg
    # 64 Himmelright 0 N/S/W of Liege 3 Bogies but lost off GCI
    # 43 Danielson 0 W of Moselle, lost 1 bogey on the deck
    # 57 Postlewaite 0 West of Moselle, lost 1 on a chase. A-I went out
    # 77 Siegle 0 N/S/E of Liege. GCI called off 1 chase
    # 94 Romens, 2nd mission; west of Liege visual on Mosquito

    gets interesting now Ulrich ........and others .........

    2017 - 0536 hrs. on October 2nd 1944 6 P-61 on Gangster.

    weather 8/10 to 6,000ft CAVU above

    more to fill and in and I will include rounds used per crew on this evening. all 6 P-61's had 0 intercept/contacts as they were also flying dual roles.
     
  6. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Gebirgsjaeger likes this.
  7. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Great Erich, thanks for the link!

    Ulrich
     
  8. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    interesting about the net and how big it is because of this thread got some interesting privates from Europe and P-61 strafing missions

    back to the rest of October 1, 1944 with the 422nd nfs 6 P-61's

    # 44 Smith strafed 1 Loco which exploded and nearly blew the tail off of the P-61 due to the concussion. 20mm useage not reported

    # 68 Doyle strafed 2 Locos, 10 cars, rolling stock and military barracks. 450 rounds used

    # 90 Jones East of Aachen no contacts but flew Gangster in the areas of Bonn to Köln. shot up 5 trains. 258 rounds. ( questionable how successful he was )

    # 58 Bolinder flew west and east of Metz Gangster over Bad Kreuznach after 0 contacts, and towards Kaiserslautern, the Rhine. Shot up 1 Train from Borrstadt to Mannheim with 100 20mm rounds

    # 73 R.A. Anderson 0 contact flew South and West of Moselle the hit the deck and shot up 4 Trucks near Nonweiler with 60 rounds of 20mm

    # 44 Smith returns to attack 2 more Locos and cars and damages them with 410 rounds of 20mm, 2nd Loco was at 0255 hrs.
     
  9. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Erich,

    interesting, that Jones would have engaged 5 trains with only 258 Rounds while Bolinder needed 100Rounds per 1 train! Seems he was very carefully maybe a newbie? So their area was the Alsace and the Ruhr area. They came very quick deep into the Reich.

    Ulrich
     
  10. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    all of them performed high aerial inspections for LW aircraft before flying low over the hills deep into Germany and it also due to flying at night the angle and direction in which they were flying and engaging the trains. Unless exploding I cannot fathom how the 2 man crews could confirm a train being destroyed so the assumption to me is damaged
     
  11. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Ah, i understand. Erich have you reports of the LW in which they stated how the value of the Widow was seen as an NF opponend? Some personally experiences of LW pilots?

    Ulrich
     
  12. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    yes have a couple of LW interviews, they were not impressed, they thought it could not turn fast enough to keep up with them, once they dived low to the ground the Black Widow could not follow: this was both for Bf 110G-4 as well as Ju 88G-6 crews.

    must say though that both LW types fell to the Widows guns and I will cover one Ju 88G-6 crews plight a bit later but the Widow crew thought the Ju 88 was clean without probs, the Ju in fact dived down low trying to skim the hills as she had been hit severely by US AA guns and was losing speed and altitude
     
  13. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Hmmh, the Me110 wasn´t known as a, "Acrobat-Aircraft" and has seen their best times long ago. And the Ju88 was over her best days too. So that i think the Widow must´ve been the better aircraft. Except the He219 "Uhu", it was abit better but much to less to be really dangerous to the bombers.

    Ulrich
     
  14. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    I think in the night fighter role the Ju 88G-6 outperformed them all Ulrich, personal taste I guess the Mossie XIX and XXX would be hard to beat, the LW experimented with too many of it's bomber fleet to come up with something innovative but will give credit to the Uhu it should of been produced in many more numbers and limits upon how many variants there were which was a waste of time and energies. The Ta 154 Moskito well it should of never taken place off the drawing board. the 110G-4 was too cramped, outdated and limited except for it's possession of the most northerly of Germanys coverage, slow with the extra out board fuel tanks. The Me 262 could of been something with the twin seater had they been able to go along with the ideas during the summer/fall of 45 with internal fuel cells and Berlin A-I radar system
     
  15. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Erich you´re right with your opinion on the LW NF´s. But that was a big mistake from Milch and Göring. And as they´ve seen the problem it was to late to make really good NF. So they used what they had, and all they had was old aircrafts most developed in 1939-1941.

    Ulrich
     
  16. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    422nd nfs on October 2/3 44 A 58B operation # 46

    10 P-61 on Defensive patrols under GCI. All P-61's 0, some had contacts with "Friendlies like other P-61's. # 38 had a dogfight with a Bf 110G near Düren at Angles 10 1/2, pilot Koehler from 800 feet gave the 110 a burst and missed the 110G gave mild evasive action and the Widow lost it. much of the flights were in the areas of Nancy, Metz and Köln.

    Operation "A" # 2C Gangster from 2031hrs on 2 of October to 0048hrs on 3 of October. 4 P-61's involved .......

    all 4 craft flew a 0 defensive patrol then went to ground strafes.

    # 47 Gordon put 375 20mm rounds into parked cars and trains though his rounds seem to only hit the cars. Attacked another 10/15 cars on rail-crossing south of Bruble with strikes being seen hitting the front of the train.

    # 43 J. Anderson had a 0 patrol near Liege and malmedy and in the area of Koblenz before attacking a train and 8/10 cars. Received light flak in return. used 70 rounds.

    # 73 M.B. Lakes at 2300 hrs in the area of Köln and Düren, strafed 1 Train with a 10 second burst strikes were seen debris and steam cloud rising in the air from 1 Loco. Strafed another Train of 50 cars with another 10 second burst with strokes witnessed all over in the area west of Köln. 280 rounds of 20mm used.

    # 58 Johnson had a 0 patrol N/S/East of Trier at Angels 13. at 2320 hrs performed Gangster in Mannheim, Worms Wiesbaden areas strafed at least 25 cars on a freight Train by Bad Kreuznach. A few strikes hit the train itself but it was sheltered in a valley. made another two passes on another 25 car train with strikes seen on most cars and fires starting the Loco stopped with bursting steam north of Gensingen.
     
  17. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    operation # 47 A 59B 8 P-61's of the 422nd nfs go out on Defensive patrols with GCI control . October 3/4, 1944

    # 34 Elmore experiences his first thoughts on contacting a LW jet in this case he reports a Me 163 traveling too fast and then bending around and following behind the Widow and then banking off....... (Mosquito night fighter) Elmore tried to give chase but it was in vain.
    # 57 Otte follows a Stirling at 20,000 feet and then 1 Mosquito NF West of Aachen
    # 58 Goredon does a gangster on a train with 60 rounds of 20mm near Dusseldorf.
    # 77 on two missions Spelis is along the Moselle and then second outing engages a Ju 188 (?) in a dogfight but the Ju was tooe vasive and the Widow crew lost it as it banked down to the deck.
    # 38 Koehler 0 on patrol all along the Metz corridor lost all contacts due to GCI
    # 42 J. Anderson 0 on patrol GCAI lost bogey too far away west of Liege.
    # 58 Gordon 0 on patrol all along Aachen corridor spotted 3 Bogeys but all lost due to GCI control
     
  18. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Erich, the Ground Control wasn´t very helpful in case of #38 and#58. Was it for bad trained personnal or the technic? Wondering, the Ju 188(?) to evasive?

    Ulrich
     
  19. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    not real sure Ulrich for GCI and not sure what the Widows engaged for the Ju 188 could it be just plain lack of night fighter experience and pursueing German LW night fighters or even the bombers ? even on a night fighters moon the Widow pilots did not ID their victims very well, the same can be said even for the German LW crews following a 4 engine bomber B-24 compared to a Halifax, etc.

    the following nightie on 4/5 October brought again strangeness in the skies. O. Johnson the CO of the 422nd nfs lost a jet (?) in the Aachen/Köln areas. we know as fact there were no 262's flying at night in October of 44, the Welter Kommando had not even been created yet.
    # 64 Lee had a contact on a reported B-17
    # 73 R.A. Johnson found Balloons on his scope North of Liege
    # 44 Smith claimed a Me 410 but was probably a Bf 110G-4 NF. He used 280 rounds of 20mm, no parachutes seen the craft exploded N.E. of Liege. This is one of the rare reports that night binoculars were used. Seems the crews for both the 422nd and 425th nfs did not use them much...........Smith/Tierney's mission last 1 1/2 hrs.
    4 other Widow pilots reported 0 contacts

    3 P-61's on Gangsters

    A 4C # 4 CAVU to ground fog so the guys had a terrible time visualizing their targets. In fact they encountered Allied AA and the 3 P-61's had uneventful eve except for # 77 Siegle who shot up lights at an airdrome at Speyer with 140 rounds of 20mm
     
  20. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Hoe good were the night binoculars? If they were good, why they didn´t use them much, too heavy too bad quality?

    Ulrich
     

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