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Orlando shooting

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by Brian Smith, Jun 12, 2016.

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  1. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large

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    We have a Second Amendment that guarantees our right to keep and bear arms to guarantee the people can resist an over reaching and oppressive government. It has nothing to do with hunting, or what farmers need. How about the Paris attack? What was it 100 killed? They had restrictive gun laws yet the bad guys got the guns. In the orlando Gay bar case, one gunshop owner even refused to sell the Orlando shooter the a weapon and ammo and notified the FBI. The same FBI that had investigated the shooter three times. The FBI never looked into the gunshop owners report. How would additional laws have helped?

    If they want to do away with the Constitutionally guaranteed right, there is a mechanism to do so. They can do it by Constitutional Amendment. They don't go that route because they know they don't have the support to get sufficient states to ratify it. So they, the pandering politicians, try to do it incrementally with new restrictions.

    As for defending oneself against terrorists, I was right across the street from the terrorist attack that killed the Marines in Chattanooga last July. The police came by and made us evacuate and hide in a warehouse (turns out it was after all the shooting had stopped). I didn't want to go, I don't want to hide, our big boss came out and ordered us to do as instructed. It's a helpless feeling. If I'd had one of my rifles or even a pistol, I guarantee the shooter wouldn't have gotten into our facility.

    Here's a video taken by one of the guys I work with during the later part of the attack. If Muhaji-dude came through the tree line (the reserve center is about 100 yards away on the other side on the trees) wouldn't you have liked to have a weapon to put the sumbeech down?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqbQZ2yDIgA&list=FL26bRsNFBPipEjy0IcgSwpQ

    You missed KB's point. Each round; "will throw thirty four .24 caliber projectiles (#4 Buck)". So each shotgun round is like shooting thirty four rounds of slightly larger caliber than a .223 round. Accuracy isn't an issue at pistol ranges because it's like a computer, point and click.
     
  2. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    So, why disarm people that will obey the law when the terrorists won't? And those "professionals" ran away and then waited 3 hours to take on ONE MAN while 49 people bled to death on the floor. No. I'm not giving up my guns. I'm not going to put my life in the hands of somebody who doesn't care whether I live or die. You might feel differently if you had a choice, but you don't have a choice.
     
  3. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    I didn't miss hit point...the 223 would be deadly only at close range (we all know that) - The idea of a scatter gun causing "dozens" of deaths is unlikely. And I see your point about shooting him, but do you want to get into a shootout with people around you? What if other shooters out of sight, see you from the window? You go and so do the people with you...its a shoot out, if people were super accurate it wouldnt bother me...but people just aren't (hence the semi autos). I personally would be pissed if you brought fire onto my position.
    This constitution thing needs seeing to IMO...So whats the plan if the government do something? The US Army are either with you and you therefore don't need weapons or they are against you in which case the plan is take on the US military?? Good luck...you'd know better than me the folly of such a venture.
    I don't think anyone is saying this will stop shootings...but it should stop the regularity of it (I sympathise with the fact you are not an island and weapons can come from other sources...but only to those who REALLY want them.)
    Its worth noting also that at the same time of the gun ban/buy back scheme homicides using guns dropped dramatically and suicides using guns reduced dramatically...the availability just wasn't there.
     
  4. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Oh, I do. I could apply for a Firearms Certificate, but have never felt the need. I won't be joining the rifle club a ten minute drive away either for the same reason.
    My life isn't any poorer for it.
     
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  5. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    There is no correlation between suicide rates and guns per capita.


    1

    Guyana

    44.2

    2

    South Korea

    28.9

    3

    Sri Lanka

    28.8

    4

    Lithuania

    28.2

    5

    Suriname

    27.8

    6

    Mozambique

    27.4

    7

    Tanzania

    24.9

    8

    Nepal

    24.9

    9

    Kazakhstan

    23.8

    10

    Burundi

    23.1

    11

    India

    21.1

    12

    South Sudan

    19.8

    13

    Turkmenistan

    19.6

    14

    Russia

    19.5

    15

    Uganda

    19.5

    16

    Hungary

    19.1

    17

    Japan

    18.5

    18

    Belarus

    18.3

    19

    Zimbabwe

    18.1

    20

    Bhutan

    17.8

    21

    Sudan

    17.2

    22

    Comoros

    16.9

    23

    Ukraine

    16.8

    24

    Poland

    16.6

    25

    Equatorial Guinea

    16.6
     
  6. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Yet, I'll bet if you visited and I started shooting steel plates off my porch, you'd soon say "Can I try that?" When you have to jump through hoops and get anally probed to buy a simple mechanical device, it gets too dreary to bother. I understand that. It's different when you have no impediments other than passing a five minute NICs background check.
     
  7. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Don't bet on it.
     
  8. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    So you're on the "Its a coincidence" team then KB?

    Just for the record I love the US and its people.
     
  9. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I have no idea what that means. I do know that I've shot guns all my life, for food, for sport, as federal law enforcement. I also know that nations with much higher murder rates than the US have much tougher gun laws. And some nations with lower murder rates also have tough gun laws.

    I know that just over a year ago I ran an armed drug smuggler off just by showing him my AR rifle. I wish now that I'd shot him dead. And I know that as an American my right to own arms are guaranteed in the Constitution, and if a group tried to revoke that Constitution they'd have to kill millions of us.
     
  10. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    well, if the sci fi writers are anything to go by...they just might. That constitution is a tool FOR the people...it sounds like it has an inch of dust and cob webs covering it...Constitutions can and MUST be updated as times change. And frankly if that's the best excuse/reason people can give then its a weak argument in my eyes. Seems gun loving Americans use this as a cure-all for the argument...just how familiar are these people with the whole constitution? Just how inamoured are they with it, or is it just a convenient line trotted out to shush common sense?
    That drug smuggler wouldn't have liked to see me either with my baseball bat...and I could have killed him with it if I so chose, but not a room full of them.
    Guns beget guns...so if you shot this bloke, how did you know there weren't others around...his brother for instance? You didn't know that...you could have been shot and killed, whomever was with you too...if I was a policeman or a TRG response officer and I saw USMCPrice firing his pistol but couldn't see who at I would have dropped him with a double tap and asked questions later...food for thought I hope.
     
  11. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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  12. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    If there is a bad guy with a gun you've already failed...
     
  13. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Really? How long is your baseball bat?

    View attachment 24493
     

    Attached Files:

  14. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Well I'd give him a jolly good talking...yelling to!
     
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  15. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    We've already discussed the cop outside the club, so that's a non-sequitur.
     
  16. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    Why ? Are you saying that a good guy with a gun can not kill a bad guy with a gun ? WWII has proved the opposite .
     
  17. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    That was a man with a gun, but lacking courage or a sense of duty and so, useless. He was outside and had the opportunity to escape, unlike those inside. A private club security guard, an ex-Marine (Huzzah!), was working unarmed security inside and a crowd of people had run to the back of the room and actually blocked an exit door that opened inward. That Marine tossed people out of the way until he could get to the door, opened it, then herded at least fifty people out. He was the last to exit. He did his duty.
    If that brave man had been armed I suspect we would have had far fewer fatalities. Even without a gun, he had the clarity and courage to do what he could.
     
  18. Ilhawk

    Ilhawk New Member

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    None of us know exactly what went down, nor do we know the situation with the police. . We don't know what the ex-Marine would have done with a gun. It is all conjecture and will take a month or so to come out.

    We don't know about standing protocol. We don't know what information the police on the ground actually knew and when. The possibilities even range as far as apathy towards the target market for the nightclub. Seriously, real discussion is somewhat moot until all information is put together.

    Not every WW2 soldier was brave in every situation. There is always the human element. Protocols and responses will likely be re-evaluated following this.
     
  19. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Here is some interesting FBI data:

    [SIZE=12pt]Murder Victims[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]by Weapon, 2010–2014[/SIZE]

    Total


    13,164


    12,795


    12,888


    12,253


    11,961


    Total firearms:


    8,874


    8,653


    8,897


    8,454


    8,124


    Handguns


    6,115


    6,251


    6,404


    5,782


    5,562


    Rifles


    367


    332


    298


    285


    248


    Shotguns


    366


    362


    310


    308


    262


    Other guns


    93


    97


    116


    123


    93


    Knives or cutting instruments


    1,732


    1,716


    1,604


    1,490


    1,567


    Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.)


    549


    502


    522


    428


    435


    Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)1


    769


    751


    707


    687


    660


    Poison


    11


    5


    13


    11


    7


    Explosives


    4


    6


    8


    2


    6


    Fire


    78


    76


    87


    94


    71


    Narcotics


    45


    33


    38


    53


    62


    Drowning


    10


    15


    14


    4


    14


    Strangulation


    122


    88


    90


    85


    89


    Asphyxiation


    98


    92


    106


    95


    96


    Other weapons or weapons not stated


    872


    858


    802


    850


    830



    Notice that rifles (of all types, not just the dreaded black rifles) are near the bottom as murder tools. More people are killed by knives, clubs, fists and certainly handguns. So,by liberal logic; let's ban rifles.
     
  20. Ilhawk

    Ilhawk New Member

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    Regardless, that's a whole lot of deaths, even though murders are down per 100k people.
     
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