Overclaiming

This also from "Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe", by Philip Kaplan, published 2007...Page 105, paragraph 2....

"The scores of enemy aircraft downed by pilots of the Luftwaffe in World War 2 will seem to be greatly exaggerated to those not familiar with the differences in confirmation and crediting procedures of the various air forces of the conflict. Authors Trevor J. Constable and Colonel Raymond F. Toliver, in the research for their book "Horrido!" devoted years to determining the thoroughness and accuracy of the German system, it's mechanics and how it compared with that of the Americans and British. For years after the war, British and American historians were sceptical about the scores credited by the Germans to the fighter pilots of the Luftwaffe, suspicious of so many extraordinarily high scores. The efforts of Constable and Toliver in examining German official documents, records, procedures, logbooks, and wing histories, and interviewing German aces, have clearly established for many, if not most historians, the credibility of the German victory claims system and shown it to be considerably more rigid, precise and valid than either the British or American systems.
In the British and American approach to victory scoring, partial credit was often given for the destruction of an enemy plane if more than one pilot was believed to have shared in the downing. Under the German system, if more than one pilot was involved in such an action, the pilots had to decide between themselves which one of them deserved the 'kill' credit. In an impasse, the credit for the kill was awarded to the pilot's unit, with no individual pilot credited. Without a witness, a victory claim by a Luftwaffe fighter pilot could not be confirmed. The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or the bale out of a pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film or by at least one other human witness. The witness could be the pilot's wingman, a squadron mate, or a ground observer of the encounter. There were no exceptions to this rule up to and including the credits of the General of the Fighter Arm, Adolf Galland. Authors Constable and Toliver obtained a copy of one of Galland's own combat reports of a downing claim which ends with Galland's statement: "I resign the confirmation of this victory for lack of a witness." The German system of accreditation was impartial and inflexible. It was also linked directly to a 'points' system relating to the award of the highest German military decorations, a system with no British or American counterpart. The German points system was only in effect on the Western Front and applied only to decoration awards and not to accreditation of pilot claims. Points were awarded as follows;

Single-engine plane destroyed = 1 point
Twin-engine plane destroyed = 2 points
Three-engine plane destroyed = 3 points
Four-engine plane destroyed = 3 points
Twin-engine plane damaged = 1 point
Three or Four-engine plane damaged = 2 points
Final destruction of a damaged twin-engine plane = Half point
Final destruction of a damaged four-engine plane = 1 point.

Toliver and Constable:
"This point-decoration system was used only on the Western Front because the Germans believed it was easier to shoot down Russian fighters and bombers on the Eastern Front than to shoot down Mustangs, Thunderbolts and Mosquitos in the West. They considered the mighty Allied bomber streams, with their lethal volumes of protective fire and hordes of accompanying fighters, to be a far tougher proposition than Soviet air-power. Although the point decoration system for the Russian front was therefore not in effect, the kill confirmation rules were the same. Late in the war, there were pilots on the Russian front with over 100 confirmed victories who had still to recieve the Knights Cross awarded for 40 points won in the West.

VB......One does not wonder, therefore, that Russian historians, in the process of air-brushing their country's war effort, have questioned these Ost-Front figures. German, British and American historians have ALL come to the conclusion, independantly and for many many years, that the German Eastern/Western Front kill claims WERE valid AND reasonable. Now, no Russian historian seems to like his precious Motherland being degraded by suggestions that Soviet pilots were "inferior"....so I offer the following

Page 108.....

"For six decades since the end of the Second World War historians have frequently echoed the notion that the Russian pilots opposing the fighter pilots of the Luftwaffe were not up to the challenge and their aircraft were inferior to those of the Germans. They rarely mention that some Soviet aircraft were equal or superior to the Bf-109; that as the war continued the Russians produced aircraft significantly better than the 109, and relatively little has been written in the West about the prowess and accomplishments of the Red Air Force aces. To understand the achievements of Erich (Hartmann) and other aces of JG-52, it is important to consider the nature of their opposition. As in most air-forces, the quality of the Russian pilots was mixed. Many German pilots who survived the war have expressed the view that, in most cases, the Germans were superior in pilot skills and technology. A distinction must be drawn, however, when considering the quality and character of the Russian units known as GUARDS FIGHTER REGIMENTS, which were the elite fighter arm of the Red Air Force. These units fronted the best of the best, the most aggressive, skilled, fearless and formidable fighter pilots the Russians had produced, and they flew some of the finest aircraft in the world at the time. They compared well with the best of the RAF pilots in the Battle of Britain and, in part, for the same fundamental reason - they were defending their homeland.
While the great majority of Red Air Force fighter pilots were probably not as well trained as the majority of their German opponents, the Russians out-produced the Germans in both trained pilots and aircraft to the extent that they ultimately won the war of attrition. The ranks of the elite pilots of BOTH sides generated many aces of such high calibre that the seemed to be fighting a seperate war within a war.


VB....There is NO NEED for Russian historians to 'airbrush' this aspect of the GPW. German claims still stand largely UNTAINTED. The Red Air Force produced it's fair share of pilots with great skill, but in a savage war of attrition, they were being knocked down quite frequently, too.

The Red Air Force has nothing to be ashamed of in this category of history. Rejoice!, sons of Mother Russia, you have a record to be proud of here as well!!!

 

Even as a college-trained semi-historian, I can find glaring methodological problems with this assertion. Pilots Kruska talked to stated categorically that claims were false and the verification system was bypassed. Essentially, Constable and Toliver asked their subjects to provide incriminating evidence--against themselves!

 

So you have methodological problems with using official documents and interviews (never mind records, procedures, logbooks, and wing histories, etc.) but not with the purely anecdotic evidence Kruska is offering (Not to discredit him or his father. I fully believe him)? Interviews are only complementing existing evidence either way. And historic research without official documents? So why exactly did you highlight these parts? Something doesn't add up here.

 

I remember reading somewhere that the Luftwaffe is on record as saying that the USAAF's Robert Johnson actuall has 36 kills versus the 32 the USAAF has creditied him with but the USAAF reused/refuses to credit him with those kills. Has anybody else heard of this?

On the issue of overclaiming I'm thinking that Richard Bong flew 100 missions downing 40 aircraft while Erich Harttman flew something like 1200- 1400(?????) missions scoring 300+ kills . Gunther Rall seems to say as much that he was no better then the best RAF/VVS/USAAF pilots but in the Luftwaffe a pilot flew to either he was injured too bad or was dead. I think luck plays a part too because, again if I'm not wrong, Adolf Galland was shot down twice in one day one of those times by a rookie RAF fighter pilot but he parachuted down over German occupied territory while notable US aces like Francis Gabreski & Papa Boyington had the misfortune of being downed over enemy controlled territory. One German pilot Lt. Franz Stigler of the JG 27 was shot down an incredible 17 times by USAAF bombers while undertaking over 500 missions defending the Reich against US bombers so luck was definately with him further he was no slouch shooting down around 48 aircraft during the war.My source for Franz Stigleris "Luftwaffe Combat Planes & Aces" which was edited by Joe Christy.

 

Getting away from Luftwaffe claims it is a fact that mid war the Germans reduced their own tank kill claims by 50% when the were collated. This 50% reduction was never applied to individual or Unit claims.
Thus they accepted that their own claims were twice reality.

 

There's also the fact that the whole system broke down late in the war. Another consideration is that while in theory the German system was better than either the British or US systems that isn't saying a whole lot.

 

Also isn't it a fact that regardless how good a system is it's only as good as the people who police it?

 

Indeed. And that's something that the per squadron analysis I spoke of earlier would point to.

 

Indeed.
The problems within the claim system in the Nazi regime was the fact that the award system in the Luftwaffe was closely tied to how many aircraft a pilot shot down, so that it encouraged pilots to seek to increase their claim total by whatever means they could. In some cases that did meant they sought to do it through fraudulent methods.
There was also the fact that as the war turned against Germany, the need to prove the accuracy of any claim became less important than the morale and propaganda benefits of ace pilots/soldiers with high scores.

 

So you're saying Hitler spoke directly to his troops by phone on each battle ? And you then doubt I ever served in any army?

Hitler gave orders to his generals who then directed them on further down the command chain. Key to German battlefield success was the fact that the German soldier was taught to think on his own initiative in battle.

 

Fighter pilots are an educated minority; they see themselves as not only an elite, but as something apart from the mainstream, even of other pilots.

Suggestions of "faking" their totals, from any country, would have been deeply insulting to these highly trained and well educated individualists. For a look at what a pilot may well do at the mention of such subjects, let's consult one of the "Experten" himself....None other than ADOLF GALLAND....

From "The First and the Last"....page 279.

"Goering began to lay increasing blame on Fighter Command and the pilots, and as I felt I had earned the right to answer him back, we were soon at loggerheads. One meeting was particularly stormy. The Reichsmarschall had summoned a number of squadron leaders and pilots to discuss a raid against southern Germany in which the German fighters had scored very few victories. After some general remarks, he proceded to comment on the Fighter Command's lack of spirit. He may have been exasperated by my replies to his previous questions; at all events, he got into such a state that he hurled reproaches and accusations at us, to the effect that we had been loaded with honours and decorations, but had proved ourselves unworthy of them, that Fighter Command had been a failure as early as the Battle of Britain, and that many pilots with the highest decorations had faked their reports to get Knights Crosses over England.
As I listened to him, I got more and more furious, until finally, I tore my Knights Cross off my collar and banged it on the table. The atmosphere was tense and still. The Reichsmarschall had literally lost the power of speech, and I looked him firmly in the eye, ready for anything. Nothing happened, and Goering quietly finished what he had to say. For six months after that I did not wear my war decorations."


Furthermore, if Constable and Toliver DID NOT consult "official records" and conduct interviews with "German Aces", then their work would be discredited as mere speculation by everyone concerned. How they can be faulted for conducting historical investigation in a very time honoured and imperical manner is beyond comprehension...

Of course, we DO have a significant number of people on this forum perfectly willing to swallow anything that Russian 'airbrushing' comes up with. Isn't it rather obvious to any educated person that these people have lied so often about the circumstances and details of their country's war effort that they have lost all credibility?

We even rely for our primary sources on WESTERNERS like David Glantz when it comes to forming a cohesive picture of the situation on the Eastern Front! That says it all for modern Russian historians in the credibility department.

 

In the same way there are strident believers prepared to swallow the desperate Nazi efforts to boost civilian morale and promote it as proven fact.

Like those educated people who swallow and defend Nazi claims?

You might but I know of no serious researcher who relies on Glantz.
I have seen dozens of threads where Glantz is pilloried for his work and I can only assume you are are still using him so you can discount all the Russian works that reflect badly on the pilots you seem to admire so much.

 

Admiration doesn't enter into it. It all has to do with SOURCING.

When Russian "sources" suddenly come up with ideas that fly in the face of everything else, you have to come to the conclusion that there is more than a little political and nationalistic motivation behind these assertions.

The only reason I am willing to believe German claims is that they have been backed up by their ENEMY.

As for believing historians like Glantz, I feel he is toeing the line as the Head of Slavic War Studies, telling modern Russians that which they wish to hear.

As a final point on the veracity of German claims, no other country went to such great lengths to establish excatly who shot who down, when and in what quantity. Mistakes WERE made, and "the system" was not perfect, but these figures were not published at the time, and were available ONLY to a few insiders.

Most citizens of the Reich had never heard of people like Hartmann, Nowotny and Rall until after the Goebbels machine had ceased to exist.

 

Furthermore....have a look at the thread For the Motherland, in our Eastern Front section. People on THIS FORUM push the works of Glantz into my face, not the other way round.

To me, Glantz and his ilk are modern day "politruks", preaching the doctrine of sweetness and light in all things Soviet. To his credit, Glantz has uncovered significant amounts of "fudging" by Soviet historians, so there must be a little truth in his assertions. BUT, in the main, he seems to be kowtowing to his Russian hosts, telling them that which they most want to hear.

And at the moment, they most want to hear that, pilot for pilot, Russian Air Force pilots were as good as the Germans. Hence the questions and "research" attempting to prove that pilots like Hartmann could not possibly have been that good.

But they were....so were Soviet pilots....Hartmann was simply LUCKY TO SURVIVE.

 

All I can say is....Show me the propaganda that mentions individual pilots from the extensive library of Goebbels output.

Figures like these were not published for the consumption of the everyday citizen.

Show me otherwise

The best uplifter of morale for the German people was the very indiscriminate nature of the Allied Bomber Offensive. The words "Terrorflieger" were bandied about by civilians. Those night attacks by the RAF, "Area Bombing" as they called it, did more to bolster German morale than any other single factor. The people felt as if they were facing the same dangers as their troops, and it drew people together, rather than spiltting them apart. There was no need for Goebbels to emphasize this fact, it was self evident.

Anyhow, show me a copy of even ONE communique for consumption of the ordinary citizen that mentions pilot "kills" and lists these people from the best downward. Play me even one broadcast where Goebbels mentions these people by name and tags their number of "kills". It was a military secret then....not for public consumption.

Prove it.....you have my views and sources already....I pass the baton to others!!!!

 

No problem

Hartmann
YouTube - Top Luftwaffe Ace Hartmann reach 300 victories

Rudel
YouTube - Rudel attacking Soviet tanks (Jan 1945)

Galland
YouTube - Die Deutsche Wochenschau 1941-01-22 Rudolf Neubrandt u Adolf Galland

Nowotny
YouTube - WW2 - Major Nowotny's funeral (Nov 1944)

Schnaufer
YouTube - Captain Schnaufer Night-Fighter ace is decorated (Nov 1944)

Marseille
YouTube - Galland visita Marseille


That's just from a ten minute search on U-Tube.

 

My experience lies in tank kill claims and it is a fact that the Germans had to reduce the kill claims submitted by tank crews because they were around twice as high as actual enemy losses.
This is conclusive proof of overclaiming. You may want to advance reasons as to why it happened but please do not say it did not happen.

The likes of Wittmann and the uber-panzer myth are living proof that the propaganda boys did sterling work in WW2 . It is a pity you chose to decry one dictators output whilst swallowing anothers wholesale.

As for Glantz then I can only repeat what I said earlier. I suspect you build him up just so you can knock him down.

 

2 'military secrets' that seem to have been broadcast in the weekly newsreels by mistake!

 

Thats just Hartmann.....where are the rest? I asked for a complete list in a broadcast, not just individuals...


And as for tank claims, who knows? They are far more difficult to obtain from service records...


So, my request remains....show me even ONE ppropaganda broadcast LISTING EVERYONE....not just individual announcements of the "stars". WE did this too, so it isn't just "Goebbels" propaganda at all!

 

No you said:


Play me even one broadcast where Goebbels mentions these people by name and tags their number of "kills".

You got a list and two stills from the newsreels.
You are going to have to do your own checking.
Fact is your claim is shown to be false.
The aces were not 'secret' and the kill claims were broadcast.
Find another windmill.