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Pacific campaign

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by GunSlinger86, Apr 21, 2016.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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  2. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Yes indeed they are excellent. Anderson though gets into the nitty gritty of what exactly happened in terms of the bureaucratic mechanism, which is a curious story to say the least, but unsurprising considering it was U.S. Federal bureaucracy at work. :cool:
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Pity it's behind a pay wall then.
     
  4. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Ooops! Sorry. Yes, JSTOR is a pain if you don't have an account. I had one so long through the government I forgot.
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Can you give me the full citation so I can order a copy?
     
  6. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    So we only had those original seven or 8 pre-war carriers that up until each one was lost until the end of 1942/early 1943?
     
  7. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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  8. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    It's JSTOR, which as OP says, is problematic, or as I say a POS.
     
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Sorry Rich, but it's you.

    This is included as part of the web address...


    There is only one blank space between the web address and the text I quoted...Try leaving at least 3 blank spaces between address and text, or better, start a new line.


    The JSTOR addy as it should be: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3638003?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
     
  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I'm not paying $22.00 to see the rest of an opinion piece.
     
  11. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Ooops!
     
  12. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Excerpts from a history of SOCONY by a Wilson Center fellow is an opinion piece?
     
  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Most historical works are opinion pieces. It's not a pejorative term, just descriptive. I differentiate between hard data and "interpretation". For example, I just converted
    [SIZE=14pt]NAVY DEPARTMENT[/SIZE]​

    [SIZE=16pt]AMERICAN SHIP CASUALTIES[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]of the[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]WORLD WAR[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]INCLUDING[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=14pt]NAVAL VESSELS, MERCHANT SHIPS SAILING VESSELS, and FISHING CRAFT[/SIZE]
    Compiled by Historical Section
    Corrected to April 1, 1923
     
  14. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but a data source is just that data - it isn't actually "history". Classically, ἱστορία, historia is an inquiry, it is knowledge acquired by research into data sources, which is then related in a narrative.

    My taxonomy would place Anderson's analysis as a primary data source driven narrative. The next would be what typically constitutes commercial "history", which is regurgitated secondary sources...analysis based upon works like Anderson's, which usually don't bother even attempting to evaluate whether or not the data actually supports the analysis. Then there are the opinion pieces masquerading as history, which are frequently based on flights of fancy or faulty memories.
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    That's what makes horse races.
     
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  16. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

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    They were not all lost.

    Lexington - lost at Coral Sea 8 May 42
    Saratoga - certainly damaged a couple-three times, but never lost
    Ranger - no damage, not lost
    Yorktown - lost at Midway, submarine attack 6 Jun 42
    Enterprise - same-same Saratoga
    Wasp - Lost, submarine attack 15 Sep 42
    Hornet - Lost at Santa Cruz 26 Oct 42
    Long Island - same-same Ranger

    So, of 8 carriers available at the start of the war, only 4 were actually "lost."

    In the meantime, before Essex is commissioned on 31 Dec 1942 the following escort carriers were commissioned. Except for Charger. all eventually saw action, some in both the Atlantic and Pacific theaters.

    Charger (CVE-30) 3 Mar 42
    Copahee (CVE-12) 15 Jun 42
    Nassau (CVE-16) 20 Aug 42
    Santee (CVE-29) 24 Aug 42
    Sangamon (CVE-26) 25 Aug 42
    Altamaha (CVE-18) 15 Sep 42
    Chenago (CVE-28) 19 Sep 42
    Suwanee (CVE-27) 25 Sep 42
    Bogue (CVE-9) 26 Sep 42
    Card (CVE-11) 8 Nov 42
    Core (CVE-13) 10 Dec 42

    And looking out to, say, the end of June 1943, a year after Midway . . .

    Essex (CV-9) 32 Dec 42
    Independence (CVL-22) 14 Jan 43
    Lexington (CV-16) 17 Feb 43
    Barnes (CVE-20) 20 Feb 43
    Princeton (CVL-23) 25 Feb 43 (lost 24 Oct 44)
    Block Island (CVE-21) 8 Mar 43 (lost 29 May 44)
    BelleauWood (CVL-24) 31 Mar 43
    Prince William (CVE-31) 9 Apr 43
    Breton (CVE-23) 12 Apr 43
    Yorktown (CV-10) 15 Apr 43
    Croatan (CVE-25) 28 Apr 43
    Bunker Hill (CV-17) 25 May 43
    Cowpens (CVL-25) 28 May 43
    Monterey (CVL-26) 17 Jun 43

    From that point, up to the surrender of the Japanese, there was a carrier (CV, CVL or CVE) commissioned, on average, every 9.8 days.
     
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  17. Dave55

    Dave55 Member

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    Wasp - Lost, submarine attack 15 Sep 42 plus USS Lansdowne ;)
     
  18. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I think you mean USS O'Brien(DD-415)...USS Lansdowne survived the war, and was later transferred to Turkey.
     
  19. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    With all the trimmings?
     
  20. Dave55

    Dave55 Member

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    I meant that a Japanese sub caused the loss of Wasp but that Lansdowne administered the coup de grace. Per usual, my attempt at being a wise guy fell flat though.
     

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