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pampa14's Aviation Click Bait

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by pampa14, Nov 9, 2013.

  1. pampa14

    pampa14 New Member

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  2. pampa14

    pampa14 New Member

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  3. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    Not the first, Germany had one in 1939, but they didn't they needed it so it was not used,
     
  4. Otto

    Otto No More Half Measures Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Thanks for the link pampa14.

    There were jets aircraft prior to the me262, and the key word here is operational. I think the 262 was the first jet to fly sorties in anger.
     
  5. arminiuss

    arminiuss New Member

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    The HE178 flew in Aug 1939. It was just a test bed for jet engine research.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    I think of operational as usable, but not having to be used in combat. The 178 could have been developed for combat if the Luftwaffe had not stopped working on it.
     
  7. arminiuss

    arminiuss New Member

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    No,it was designed as a test bed for jet engines. The HE 280 was the design Heinkel came up with for a fighter.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. pampa14

    pampa14 New Member

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  9. jimmytwohand

    jimmytwohand New Member

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    Do you know any context? Was this just used for evaluation or did they actually use it in anger?
     
  10. gunbunnyb/3/75FA

    gunbunnyb/3/75FA Member

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    i had known that the germans had rebuilt a couple of b17s but i had never seen any shots of p51s in german hands.
     
  11. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    The Germans used whatever they could catch and recycle, Russian, French British and Americvan and more nations too. They even had a captured B-24


    Enjoy this Vickers Wellington Bomber for example

    [​IMG]
     
  12. A-58

    A-58 Cool Dude Patron  

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    I've read where the Germans used captured B-17s in attempts to infiltrate US bomber formations. Once in, the German B-17s would then commence firing at the US B-17s. It wasn't an effective tactic for long. Afterwards US bomber formations had orders to shoot down any unknown aircraft that tried to get into their formations.

    Mostly what I read about them was the Germans used the B-17s to train fighter pilots the weak spots to attack during bombing raids.
     
  13. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    There have been persistent stories of attacks by allied aircraft apparently "flown by the enemy".. I am afraid that the most likely explanation for these incidents is "friendly fire."

    In the last few decades there have been several incidents when aircraft have attacked and shot down friendly aircraft or attacked friendly ground forces. In one of these incidents the USAF shot down two Blackhawk aircraft, including, as a passenger one of my brother officers. These incidents are much easier to trace and prove in modern small wars where almost every activity is traced on some electronic media.

    There is no evidence of the Germans using a P51 "In anger" against allied aircraft. It would have been very dumb of them. No minor tactical benefits would outweigh the costs and risks to them.

    1. All the time a "German " P51 was in the air in a combat zone, it would have been in great danger. Most of its flight would have been in German airspace over trigger happy flak gunners and among Jaeger pilots trained in aircraft recognition and with senses attuned to react aggressively to anything that looked like a P51. Any national markings would have been only visible long after the aircraft type had been identified by its silhouette.

    2. There were much better uses for a captured P51. Even after test pilots had extracted the secrets of the P51, operational units benefited from seeing the aircraft at close quarters and practicing flying against the type, or even having a go themselves. Zirkuis Rosarius was the main operator. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zirkus_Rosarius . .

    3. It was not easy for an enemy to operate and get the best from allied aircraft. A captured aircraft would not come supplied with manuals, spare parts, munitions or special fuels and lubricants. Nor were German ground staff or the German aircraft industry equipped to support the different Allied aircraft they captured. Pilots would not have been briefed about their aircraft's quirks, which might prove fatal if flown to its limits in combat. . .

    None of the above was true of French aircraft which fell into German hands together with the factories which built them and facilities which supported them,. Thus the Germans operated LO 451 bombers and used Rhone aircraft engines. The Japanese captured so many P40s and their ground facilities in the Phillipines that they could deploy a squadron of P40s. Some aircraft were supplied to both sides under some pre war contracts, thus the Japanese and Soviets operated variants of the C47. The South African Air Force operated Ju52s and the Finns used Bristol Blenheim bombers and Glstor Gladiator fighters s.(as did the Soviet Union) .
     
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  14. jimmytwohand

    jimmytwohand New Member

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    Poor little Wellington. :( I hope the chap on the left is taking a run up to punt the fellow under the prop in the posterior. I was vaguely aware that KG200 used captured bombers but thought they were mainly used to shadow allied bomber formations and zero the fighters in.

    Thanks for that great reply Sheldrake. it was a bit of a lazy question but i thought i'd try to get Pampa doing a bit of work for the traffic to his links ;). I had read anecdotal stories of allied aircraft being turned against their former owners.Your explanation of friendy fire seems highly plausible. I would also imagine that with sometimes horrific closing speeds cant help with ID issues either.

    Lots of logistical and integration issues which i hadn't considered. Different fuels was something which i hadn't considered at all, assumng it was much of a muchness. It's on the list to look at. Cheers!
     
  15. BarronVonBerger

    BarronVonBerger New Member

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    I would think they were learning the technology behind each aircraft to understand their weaknesses and flaws. That is definitely intelligence at it's finest.
     
  16. Dave55

    Dave55 Member Patron  

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    I've read about this guy for years. Anyone have any more info on him? I kind of hope it is true (as long as he didn't have any success)

    Found this account on a dead link on the net:


    The Phantom P-38


    One of the more interesting stories in the MTO was of the phantom P-38, which was causing trouble for many crippled bombers. Beginning on June 4, 1943, a crippled bomber was coming back from a mission against the island of Pantelleria. The crew was considering bailing out of their bomber when they spotted a P-38 coming closer. They immediately relaxed knowing it was coming to their aid. The crew continued to dump extra weight from the aircraft, including the guns and ammunition. Before the crew realized what happened, the P-38 erupted in gunfire and destroyed the B-17. The only survivor was the pilot, Lt. Harold Fisher. Fisher was rescued and was the target of fury from the fighter pilots by suggesting it was a friendly P-38 that shot them down.

    Several weeks before Lt. Fisher's ordeal, a P-38 pilot was low on fuel and was lost. He actually made an emergency landing just outside of Sardinia. The pilot was captured before he was able to destroy his aircraft. Italian pilot, Lt. Guido Rossi came up with the idea of using this P-38 against the American bombers. Rossi's strategy was to wait until the bombers made their attacks. Rossi would then take off and scout around for stragglers. He actually used this technique to shoot down several bombers. Until Lt. Fisher, no other crews survived to tell of the P-38 shooting them down. The American commanders were under the assumption that these missing bombers just did not make it back just as many before them. Nobody thought a friendly aircraft was the cause.

    After Fisher told his story, bombers crews were alerted to look for a lone P-38, which was posing as a friendly. Fisher came up with the idea of using a decoy B-17 to attract Rossi. Fisher's idea was approved and he took off in the experimental YB-40 gunship. This was simply a modified B-17, which had more armor and guns. He flew several missions lagging behind the rest of the formations, but never encountered Rossi. Intelligence was being gathered and the Allies finally learned the identity of the pilot. They also learned that his wife was living in Allied occupied Constantine. An artist actually used a picture of his wife to paint a nose art picture on Fisher's bomber, and included her name, Gina. On August 31, a B-17 raid struck Pisa. Fisher was flying among the bombers, and was actually damaged by enemy fighters. He recovered at a low altitude and had to feather two engines. Before lone, a lone P-38 was approaching and the crew was on high alert. Rossi, using very good English, contacted Fisher, just as he did on previous occasions. Rossi immediately noticed the nose art on the aircraft and spoke with Fisher. Fisher was still uncertain the pilot was Rossi and was chatting with Rossi normally. Fisher decided to bait this pilot to see if it was Rossi or not, and began talking about Gine and her location in Constantine. When Fisher was describing intimate details of their "relationship", Rossi lost his cool. He peeled off and began his attack. Fisher ordered all guns to open up on this P-38, and Rossi had to peel off trailing smoke. Rossi intended to ram the bomber, but began breaking up and could not maintain flight. He was able to ditch in the water and survived. Rossi was later picked up and taken prisoner. Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross medal for his efforts. Fisher would survive the war, but was killed in a transport accident during the Berlin Airlift. Incidentally, Rossi was one of the mourners at his funeral.
     
  17. Wgvsr

    Wgvsr New Member

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    I've seen the story a couple of times before but have never seen anything 'official' on it.
    Bill
     
  18. mcoffee

    mcoffee Son-of-a-Gun(ner) Patron  

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    About 15 photos or so down the list is a B-24 of the 449th Bomb Group that landed intact at a German held airfield in Northern Italy. The son of the tail gunner has a nice page about the aircraft here:
    http://sunshine.melchiorre.com/
    http://picasaweb.google.com/taichieasy/SagaOfSunshine

    The aircraft was heavily damaged by flak over Lake Di Nemi on 17 February, 1944. It did not fly again until 24 March when it had to turn back with fuel transfer issues. It next flew on the 28th when it again turned back with mechanical issues. On the 29th it made an emergency landing and was captured.

    In the attached photo it is being flown by the Germans after capture. Note the Iron Cross just visible on the aft fuselage, and the 449th tail markings have been painted over.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

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    The details of the P 38 story look pure fantasy (no record of it in Italian sources) but may be based based on this rather well documented historical episode..

    A P 38G landed in on 12/6/1943 at Capoterra (Sardinia) due to a navigation error caused by a defective compass during a flight from Gibraltar to Malta. It's Italian pilot was Col. Angelo Tondi (not Guido Rossi) from the reparto sperimentale di volo (the unit that tested all new Italian plane models before acceptance, AFAIK it still exists). He flew some missions with it from Guidonia (near Rome) where the RSV was based and is credited with a B24 on 11/8/1943, but the P38 was damaged and during repairs it was discovered that the Italian fuel had badly corroded the tanks so the plane was grounded and not repaired before the armistice.

    The P38 was repainted before being flown by Tondi and a photo of it shows the typical axis white bands and savoy crosses on the tails, a good thing as on the very first flight it was jumped by a pair of German Me 109s that luckily recognized the insignia. The one picture I have of it doesn't show the original markings but ...... (to be continued after some more research).

    ......
    the original very suspect story is here
    http://www.92ndma.org/miscellaneous/Newsletters/yb40gunship.d87.pdf

    On an italian site we have some more info on Tondi than I copied and they also state the serial ended in 2278 which was not in my book.
    http://www.aereimilitari.org/forum/topic/12272-guido-rossi-e-il-p38-fantasma/

    or if you want the photo here
    http://www.ww2incolor.com/italian-forces/italian_p38.html



    Now this one must hold the record
    [​IMG]


    Lettonian Gladiator capured first by the Soviets then by the Germans in service with ErgGr(S)1 in 1942-3
     
  20. pampa14

    pampa14 New Member

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