Panzer III vs. T-34

Hey,

I just came across this article, discussing the differences between T-34 and Panzer III. From what I know, T-34 was a Panzer killer. Germans had little chance against this machine. But this article is discussing limited maneuverability, and great reliability issues. I looked up online and seems like those are legit claims, in contrary to what I've been personally believing my whole life. Thoughts?

http://bitbunch.eu/world-war-ii-tank-showdown-t-34-vs-panzer-iii/

 

Regarding its famous reputation, the T-34 did have some issues. One of things we've talked about in a different topic was the comparison of German tanks to French tanks.

One of the members brought up a good point: Although some of the German tanks used during the invasion of France were obsolete regarding their armament and armor compared to the French tanks, one of the things the German tanks had that gave them an upper hand was radio. They were easily able to communicate with each other via radio where as the French didn't exactly have that upper hand.

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/52082-the-battle-of-france/page-3

The T-34 had a similar issue. They usually didn't have the radio where they could contact other tanks. Instead they had to use signals such as flag signals. The T-34 had an outstanding reputation for its Panzer killing as well as its revolutionary slanted armor as it said in the article you posted, but in a lot of cases it lacked the communications to contact other tanks and work in a cohesive unit like the Germans were able to. Though they did manage to work in as a good unit sometimes, it was usually because there was so many of them.

The T-34 was definitely superior in its tank killing, armament, and weaponry, but the German tanks such as the Mark III were more advanced in the way they communicated and worked together as a unit.

Unfortunately one of the biggest issues of the German tanks is that there just wasn't enough of them to counter the endless numbers of Soviet tanks that were coming out of the factories every day.

 

Yep, I know lack of radio was definitely an issue. Well, for the soviets it's always been - what's not taken by wits is taken by power. And that's a lot of power in this case.

 

An excellent summary of the Mark 111

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer_III.php

And of the T-34:

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/soviet/soviet_T34-76.php


There were many variationd and upgrades so there is no one one Mark111 and T-34 as these reports show. The Mark three eventually was up gunned to a 50MM L60 that could penetrate a T 34 but then the T34 up gunned yo sm 85mm which was close to a US 76mm or a Firefly 77 or the Mark 4 75.

The T-34 had it's problems, as did the Mark 111 but the T 34 should have better ground pressure given the width of it's tracks.....provided they stayed on..

 

I'm curious Peter but since we are talking about tanks, have you ever heard of Soviet tanks running into German tanks during the Battle of Kursk in a last ditch attempt to disable the German tanks? I heard about that one time when I was watching a documentary on Kursk. Do you know of that is true?

 

One thing the T-34 did do for the German army was get them to develop the MkV Panther tank....but again, it was over engineered and expensive/difficult to manufacture. I think the MkIV was a better match against the T-34 than the MkIII but still suffered against the 76.2MM on the soviet tank. Neither side had a really dependable tank, automotively speaking. Especially compared to the design of the Sherman. Maybe not the best tank for battling enemy armor above the MKIV, but it would go long distances with normal maintenance.

One thing I have noticed about most of the Soviet designs....there is not much room in them. When I went thru basic at Ft Knox, I went to the museum there and looked at the displays. The Soviets must have recruited their tank force from the wizard of oz! I think even the lollipop kids would have had issues in there.

 

I think this makes sense. T-34 is not very reliable, and since there were thousands of them on the battlefield, physically blocking German tanks is the way to go. Plus, tactically this can be a way to force the Germans out of the tank.

Without looking up the numbers, I believe Soviets lost thousands of tanks in Kursk. Germans I think hundreds or in the low thousands.... Legendary clash.

 

Those are some really neat articles Gaines. Thank you for sharing those.

 

My pleasure, the nice thing is that you can look up any tank there.

Gaines

 

There is a fantastic picture of a tank ramming here. Good luck finding it. Some excellent bits are buried in this site.

 

I did find these picture (on Google images)

The first one is the aftermath of a ramming.

 

The 1941 Pz III (Typically with a 50mm L42 but a lot had the 37mm) was undergunned to deal with a contemporary T34 and more so if facing a KV, they had a much better crew layout than the early T34. But Soviet tactics and training in 1941 were poor, while the Germans were at their peak and that counted for more than the gun vs armour match. The lack of radios was a limitation but without proper doctrine and training radios are not terribly useful.

 

One has to be careful overarmour losses at Kursk which continue to cause controversy ( see for instance Citino's 'The Incredible Shrinking Battle Of Kursk' etc ). Best current estimate as given in Schrank's 'Thunder At Prokhorovka' is approximately 250 Panzers destroyed/unrepairable and 1600 Soviet tanks destroyed/unrepairable.

 

Cool photos, although the T-34s appear to have rammed vehicles less valuable than themselves, a StGIII and a PzII.

 

Dobbie, I read , long ago, that the Soviets did inf act recruit short men for the T-54-55 series. Perhaps it began earlier. .

Gaines

 

It's also important to know that the average height of men in 40's was 5ft 6. Today, it's 5ft 9. I mean, if the average is 5ft 6, I think finding 5ft 4, even 5ft 3 men is not much of a problem.

 

good maneuvering, sloped armor, good gun=good T34

 

It must be something about the average height then as compared to now. I am 6 feet tall, and a few years ago at an airshow, they had a B-17 which one could tour the inside. Not much room in them either, especially in the nose of the aircraft. And no way was I going to fold up into the belly turret.

 

I sat in the drivers seat of a British Scorpion tank, The drivers seat had two positions normal with head out and combat lower to shut the hatch. Even in the driving position my head was out of the hatch, mind I'm not sure any tank is designed for my 6' 4'.

 

Hey guys, just to revive this topic, I visited this BitBunch website again - and there's a new rendered model of Panzer III tank. I think it's one of the most accurate ones I've ever seen in video games... what do you think?



http://bitbunch.eu/chain-command-gearing-operation-early-access-2015/