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Pistol Shot Training

Discussion in 'Small Arms and Edged Weapons' started by KodiakBeer, Jun 2, 2017.

  1. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I hope you don't mind jumping back to sidearms. I shot this vid back when I lived in Alaska, not long after I learned about Hi Powers. It illustrates what a fine pistol the Hi Power is, with some proper training. It's a very easy handgun to master. I had been training to shoot what are variously called splits, controlled pairs, hammers (or controlled hammers) or double taps (take your pick) with military (OK, Coast Guard) police with 1911 pistols prior to picking up Hi Powers and learning how much better I could control that style of handgun. In effect, I could shoot controlled pairs as quickly as .21 seconds with a High Power, but was lucky to break .35 with the heavier recoil of a 1911 - and those rounds with the Hi Power could be covered with my palm, while the 1911 pairs were at least double that size.

    The reason for this double shot tactic in the vid, despite what Hollywood would have us believe, is that sidearms are pitiful stoppers. A single shot to the center torso may indeed be a killing shot, but it's rarely a "stopping" shot in physiologic terms. The assailant may stop and drop, but it's nearly always a "I just got shot" psychological reaction. He may die of the wound 15 minutes later, but if being shot doesn't take the wind out out him, you're still dealing with a maniac with a slow internal bleed. He can still kill you with whatever weapon he has in hand. Didn't some German once say "pistols are for executing prisoners."?

    So, the 'double-tap' is one method of defensive shooting that essentially doubles your odds, especially with single action triggers as found in the Hi-Power, 1911 or other designs of the mid-20th century. There is a 3rd component (not shown in this vid) called the 'Mozambique' that was developed by various people in southern Africa during the late unpleasantness there. Everybody, on both sides, was largely carrying Hi Powers, and almost universally using FMJ military issue bullets, which are an even poorer stopper than the various hollow points used today. A Mozambique was a double-tap to the chest, followed by a pause and slower shot to the head if the fellow didn't drop on the spot.

    Double-Tap: Pop, pop. Mozambique: Pop, pop, short pause, pop.

    I suppose those who carry pocket pistols should probably train with something like a Quadruple-Tap. Put four quick ones in the chest to slow him down, and if that doesn't 'stop' the attacker, save the last two or three for his head.

    The pistol in the vid is actually a Hi Power, but for some reason YouTube squished the vid laterally, making it look like some short-barreled pistol.

     
  2. Otto

    Otto Spambot Nemesis Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I've heard of the Mozambique exercise and along with double I taps train them when I can. It seems a sight more useful that slow incremental trigger pulls, or just emptying the magazine as fast as you can.

    The logic of the Mozambique appears sound, but I've no idea what sort of use it is in a live situation. Hopefully I never have to find out.

    Either wayay, the Mozanbique is lot more fun to practice than many other shooting methods, and I've found it's really good way to improve your aim. If you can perform a quick, accurate Mozambique then you are a good with a pistol.
     
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  3. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Nothing ever goes as it does in a training scenario. But, whether you drop the guy or not, two to the chest should stop him long enough to get a more careful aimed shot to the head that WILL stop him. The law, everywhere, (theoretically) gives you an affirmative defense as long as the assailant is armed, and still standing. That's the legal theory behind the Mozambique. Of course, those mercs that developed it were more concerned about emptying their gun than legalities. If you were down to a sidearm, your rifle was already empty, and you didn't want to just blaze away until you had an empty pistol as well.

    I generally just train with double taps, without the head shot. I worry that an aggressive DA, or a civil court, would call a head shot an execution. So, when I practice on the plates I just repeat doubles to the chest. And, we civilians have more effective ammo than the military ball of armed forces people. I'm 99% sure I'll never shoot anyone, but I try to train as if I'll need to defend that shooting, because I surely will.
     
  4. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Topic split off for clarity and to keep Von Poop happy :)
     
  5. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Good thinking! That Von Poop is a wild man when he gets liquored up and loses his temper!
     
  6. the_diego

    the_diego Active Member

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    But some say it's harder to double-tap with the P-35 compared with other 9mm's due to the trigger. How true is that?
     
  7. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    The P-35 (Hi-Power, High-Power) has a pretty decent single action trigger, much better than any of the spongy Glock style triggers in newer pistols. Civilian users, if they're smart, immediately take out the magazine disconnect which improves the trigger even more. The mag disconnect is a device that makes the pistol 'safe' when the magazine was removed, a request of the original French military contract they were going for. Because that device touches the trigger (to lock it when the mag is removed), you get a bit of 'gravelly' feel and another pound of weight. Remove it and you basically have a 1911 trigger, a rifle trigger. Though, it's a better trigger than modern pistols even with the mag disconnect left in place.
     
  8. harolds

    harolds Member

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    The P-35 is an outstanding pistol! I have one, but it's one of the rare ones in 30 luger (unfired, in the box) so I haven't shot it. Have shot many others and they're so much more pointable than a 1911 it's unreal! When my carry gun was a Walther PP I always trained by shooting for the head exclusively. I figured that even if the slug doesn't reach the brain, by slamming through jaws, teeth, sinuses, etc. it would significantly erode an attacker's ability to harm me until one finally did hit the brain. Double taps be damned! My strategy is to keep shooting until, 1) they drop. 2) retreat, posing no threat, or 3) I run out of ammo! Naturally, if there's more than one assailant I would have to alternate shots. Right now my carry gun is a Remington R51. It's almost identical to the PP in size and weight, a natural pointer, and the barrel is low to the hand making felt recoil fairly light-even with +P loads.
     
  9. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Or you could talk your way out...or run. Just a thought 007.
     
  10. harolds

    harolds Member

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    The only time I've actually drawn a gun for "real" was this winter when I was taking a walk. A large dog lunged across the fence and bit me in the shoulder. It then tried to climb over the fence with what I'm sure was a full intention of turning me into a chew toy. Ever try to reason with a dog? Or outrun one? Fortunately he couldn't quite get the traction to get over the fence. If had and continued with the attack, which I'm sure he would have, I'd have shot him. Animal control had quite a talk with the owner by the way.

    Some situations are amenable to being de-escalated. Some aren't. Running isn't an option either physically or psychologically.
     
  11. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    Oh come on now..... You are clearly unfamiliar with the typical morning commute to work in most American cities. Here is some rare footage of a good, honest working man making his way to his office inner-city Chicago.

     
  12. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    And when you don't have a gun you HAVE to find another way...You could have:

    * Punched it in the throat
    *Kicked/kneed its ribs into its internal organs
    *stomped its feet
    *Side kicked its legs breaking them
    *Punched the back of its neck or spine
    *Eye gouged it
    *lifted it by its tail giving it no traction
    *Picked it up and thrown or slammed it into a wall.

    Dogs are easy to kill if you aren't afraid. They, like all predators rely on panic.

    But I get your point.

    PS: If you are trying to extricate a dog from a limb...try sticking a finger in its bum...99% of dogs will let go and turn to see WTF you are doing! Works a treat.
     
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  13. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    You may only need a gun once in your whole life, but when you need it you will need it very badly. That aside, shooting guns is fun.
     
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  14. Half Track

    Half Track Well-Known Member

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    I agree, that is why I am glad that I live in a pro-gun state.
     
  15. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Hopefully none of us will ever "need it very badly" but if we do, we do.

    As an aside, I was in Walmart a couple of days ago and I saw a lady with two young children doing her shopping. On her right hip was a holstered automatic pistol. In the small of her back was a large sheath knife slanted so that she could reach it with her left hand. The interesting thing was that nobody was taking the slightest offense or was worried.
     
  16. Half Track

    Half Track Well-Known Member

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    Here in Pennsylvania we have open carry in "most locations " as you may be aware, but I rarely see anyone doing it. Personally, I only do it in the woods or on the trail. I have a LTCF.
     
  17. Terry D

    Terry D Well-Known Member

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    I have recently been re-reading Dashiell Hammett's detective stories. One of the many interesting things about them is that Hammett was a former detective, and so a bit more knowledgeable than your usual mystery writer. With regards to pistol technique he has one story (Dead Yellow Women) where a Chinese gunman uses his automatic in what Hammett describes as typical Chinese style--namely blazing away until the chamber is empty. It works, too, and the Chinese gets his man. I have some stuff by Fairbairn and Sykes somewhere, and I will have to read it to see if they ran in to this so-called Chinese pistol shooting style when they worked in Shanghai.
     
  18. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I've read Fairbairn (and/or Sykes?) Shanghai pistol technique as taught to Chinese police. If I remember correctly (and I may be confusing it with someone else) it was some kind of one-handed point-shooting style. A lot of pistol shooting styles popped up in the early and mid 20th century, because until then there was no 'correct' or best way to shoot a pistol in combat, unless you chose the army method which was to stand there like a statue and coolly take aim at your foe, arm fully extended, feet placed just so, a slight sneer on your face.
    All those various styles fell away when Jeff Cooper invented the "Modern Technique of the Pistol" in the 1950s - two hands, isosceles or Weaver stance, focus on front sight, press trigger. Really, it all boils down to two hands and a repeatable and solid stance. There are an untold number of 'experts' trying to claim their own 'better' technique, but they all are teaching Cooper's technique with some little twist; position your thumb here instead of there, or hold your offhand elbow low instead of high...
    I suspect most casual shooters today (if they've had training) can shoot better than the famed gunmen of the past.
     
  19. harolds

    harolds Member

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    When I was a young 2nd Lt. in the army our pistol training consisted of one afternoon firing at man-shaped targets at 25 meters, using a one-handed, standing position. I soon learned that to hit the chest area of the target I had to aim that particular 1911A1 at the top of the right shoulder! Very unrealistic training-as befits the weapon the army has the least interest in. Of the three firearms disciplines (rifle, pistol, shotgun) the hardest to master is the handgun. The training I received in the service did little to improve my skills.
     
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  20. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    In the Coast Guard,1979, they had already moved to the modern technique, but I did not get my pistol qual in boot camp and had to earn it later. Something about 3rd Class Gunner's Mates screaming in my ear (yes we had earplugs, but still...) seemed to throw off my concentration. The 9lb trigger pulls in those MilSpec 1911s didn't help either, but I managed it easily, later, with the same type pistol.
     

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