Pointless German Tanks...Your Take On It...

the blame for alot of these ridiculous superheavy tanks can be placed squarely at Hitler's feet. Many designers such as Ferdinand Porsche understood Hitler's thinking and were eager to cater to it (what designer doesnt want his baby to be made and used?). Hitler was a big fan of the super-heavy tanks since he tended to be an overly big thinker even at the expense of practicality. He knew, and the German ordnance bureau knew, that German industry could never hope to out-produce the allies. Therefore Germany would be forced into a "quality" war: A few very good German tanks (Tigers, Tiger 2s, Panthers) and every well trained crews, against a great many relatively average or mediocre T-34's and Shermans (and their poorly trained or mediocre crews). So Hitler became almost obsessed with the Super heavys.

 

I read in Will Fey's book that 6 Konigstigers were responsible for 480 tanks knocked out, and that was what they could count.

 

Well your statment is pretty useless.

The Tiger earned in Blood what was called "Tigerphobia". As well as the fact that is was respected as a tank that more times then not, even if it was 3 Shermans versus 1 tiger, you would likely be up in flames.

The Term "Heavy" makes its debut in the Tiger. A better armoured, more powerful tank then almost anything on the feild was what the Germans wanted and thats what they got in the Tiger.

Do you think that Allied tankers had a jolly old time with the Tiger saying "Oh we will just go around the Infantry support and Paks and simply hit in that back! La la la la"

No thats not the case, if you came up against one you had to change your whole strategy. You would need to figure out a way to get around it if possible without being blown up by Panzershrecks or Paks or Panzerfausts (The Tiger was used as a short range offensive weapon, or Perimiter defence) If you make it through all that; you would then have to somehow shoot his fuel tanks first, but since you left formation with your likely now dead buddies, that "weak" 88 is looking at you waiting for your little body to stick out.


Mechanical problems? As is known he Tiger was never far from the front.... and with the front their are rear area vehicle repair shops. Im sure one out of the other 4-5 Tigers in your group would be able to tow you there. Engine problems could be fixed with ease, tracks could be replaced, and armour dents? Hell, the crews loved the idea of having "proving" marks on their Panzer.

 

I would not call it useless. It did the job it was designed for. It was designed to counter the T-34 in the Eastern Front where there was great open plains, not the hills, forests and bocage of the west. Put the Sherman in the East and it would be a whole different story. Also, the Sherman had to be able to get close enough to the Tiger first. It was still the numbers game. A single Sherman could not do it. At least not in the open. In the West, the Mk IV or the Panther were a better choice.

 

WOW! Is that really true? I know that the last two king tigers in Berlin during the last days took out some 150 russian tanks before either being knocked out or running out of everything.

Just seems if 480 tanks for two king tigers were case...well even half of that...then the Germans should have been able win the armor war no?

Something like 470 King tigers were built right? If you do the math between the king tigers, tiger 1's, jagdtigers and jadgpanters....the german tanks should have been able to knock out well more tanks then the allies even built. Of course I know that not every tank did do that lol.

I'm NOT by any means calling you a liar or anything I'm wondering if Will Fey might be a little bit mistaken though....no?

 

Oops my mistake, I didnt say that it was in Berlin. It was 6 Kings near the approaches to the Reichstag.

In Fey's book, it is a collection of accounts from German Panzer commanders. A genious book I must add.

 

According to Jentz, SS-Pz.Abt. 503 (later II./SS-Pz.Reg. 11?) received 39 Tiger IIs and then moved to the Eastern Front in February 1945. By early May, the unit had scored around 500 kills with 39 losses.

That only 6 Tiger IIs scored 480 of these kills in the closing days of the war, sounds doubtful to me.

Sincerely, D Evil

 

It sounds doubtful to me as well, but Russian "pushy" tactics lead to all sorts of mishaps.

 

Very dubious indeed. After cross-referencing 2d SS Pz D's claimed tank kills in Manhay and Grandmenil with US army losses, I came to the conclusion that their score was probably inflated by maybe five to six times if not more. This should be no surprise there, as even veteran troops might grossly over claim tank kills. The Germans would be too disorganized at 1945 to verify the claims of tactical units, constant retreat made "body count" difficult, and there is propaganda value to overlooking those errors too.

 

Btw, if it wasn't clear enough in my previous post, I would like to add that the 6 Tiger IIs in Berlin, in fact belonged to s.SS-Pz.Abt. 503. The claim, that they (6 Tiger IIs) killed 480 tanks and thus accounted for 96 % of the units kills, is hilarious and does certainly not match the unit’s day by day action reports (see Wolfgang Schneider’s “Tigers In Combat II”).

Sincerely, D Evil

 

To add to D Evil's comment...
No.
But I'd also be doubtful of the unit's claims overall, inflation not uncommon in that area.

I also fail to see how metals for Large tanks could be transformed into charges and propellants for more Panzerfausts?? .

~A

 

Well.... im not sure but I guess it goes with the "if not this, then that" theory.

 

While this is starting to go a bit off subject here, does anyone know how many tanks and what types where present at the battle of berlin? How many units etc..?

 

To defend the Berlin region including the city and its environs, the Germans marshaled 800,000 men, 1,500 tanks and assault guns, and 9,000 artillery pieces. The Soviets fielded 2.5 million men, 6,250 tanks and SP artillery, 41,600 tubes of artillery and 7,500 combat aircrafts. The Soviets went the whole nine yards with their armor. They had T-34-85s, SU-122/152s and JS-IIs. The Germans had the predictable mix of StuGs, Mk IVs, Vs, VIBs, and the odd PzJgs here and there.

 

For the Berlin battle the Germans also fielded a whole plethora of oddities from who-knows-where as well. The Panzer Wansee a FKL with a rotating homemade rack of panzerschrek on it, several Waffenträger on Pz 38d chassis, at least two Mk V tanks of WW 1 vintage, several FT 17, several M13/40, etc. There are claims that the last two Elephant were used in the battle too.

 

..he has rather exaggerated his own combat successes in his book...

 

The Germans better have had obscene kill to kill ratios to even consider a possible win with those numbers...well not a win...but at least holding them off for some time

 

Hi FartNuts
The high tank kill ratio due to Panzerfaust not their tanks ,and their 800,000 men were a civilians(children and older adults) more than a real soldiers without enough fuel or ammunitions,despite all that, they could destroy 10% of the whole Red Army but Germans win this battle ,I cannot imagine that

 

Originally posted by Von Poop:

Indeed, there are several questions related to this list:

-As was standard procedure with all tank units, the Germans simply reduced the original kill-claims of s.SS-Pz.Abt.503 by 60-70% → 500 kills.

-These claims are purely listed as “kills”, total write offs or not.

-On top of that, one can assume that the unit’s list of losses only includes total write offs. However, whether the unit managed to recover any of their “killed” Tiger IIs is uncertain to me.


Sincerely, D Evil

 

I agree that the Jagdtiger was kinda useless, but I would also add the Tiger II, the "Maus," and the P.1000 Landkreuzer, if they had ever made it, we would have won the war ALOT quicker:

An awesome machine, but there was good reason why they cancelled the project in 1942...