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Polish Weapons During Market Garden -Soviet?

Discussion in 'Weapons & Technology in WWII' started by ww24interest, Oct 23, 2016.

  1. ww24interest

    ww24interest Member

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  2. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    The Poles escaped to the allies with nothing more than the clothes on their backs. They didn't bring any equipment with them, and so were trained and outfitted by the British.
     
  3. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    A few items that come to mind (in no particular order):

    • Ammunition Supply: had they even brought their own weapons with them, it would be a logistical nightmare. The only standardized ammunition that was shared with the Western Allies was 9x19mm. Polish rifles and machine guns were chambered for 8mm Mauser (which was not a standard British cartridge except with the Royal Armored Corps via the Besa machine gun, which had its own supply chain regardless) and would necessitate dedicated specialized logistical support for the Polish units, or mean that they'd essentially have to be "fed" by captured German ammunition. The anti-tank rifle you mentioned used a proprietary cartridge that could not be obtained anywhere in quantity.
    • Maintenance of Weapons: Spare parts would be another issue -- there simply wouldn't be any. Had the Poles fled with their weapons in 1939, a significant amount would have been unserviceable by 1944 due to normal wear incurred over 5 years of war. Using Polish weapons would have required production of consumable items (barrels, springs, stocks, etc) for these weapons to occur in the UK or even the US. For those that could not be repaired, you'd have to replace them -- meaning you would need dedicated production lines as you would not have been able to mix Polish guns with Commonwealth guns in a unit due to maintenance and supply complications. This would not have occurred -- there was no need to set up what would essentially be a "cottage industry" to supply/maintain a small set of weapons when the standardized weapons/consumables were already being produced in extremely large numbers and were almost universally more effective. I'm speaking solely of a standard "combat unit" (which is what the Poles were) -- not to be confused with specialized units like the OSS which had different mission requirements and needed highly specialized equipment.
    • Obsolescence of Weapons: The 1939 Polish arsenal was "light" on portable automatic weapons. The Poles made extremely limited use of submachine guns in 1939. By 1944 this mentality was obsolete -- especially for urban fighting. Furthermore, there was only 1 light machine gun model - the wz1928 - and although a very good weapon, it was not equivalent to "general purpose" machine guns such as the MG34/42 or M1919, and not quite as utilitarian as the Bren. I'm not saying that Polish weapons were "bad", only that over the 5 years of war unit-level tactics had changed and the Polish 1939 arsenal was being increasingly "left in the dust" in the technical advance. Better options were available by 1944, the the Poles were using them.
    • Availability of Weapons: KodiakBeer covered this, but let me add that Soviet weapons were not "adopted" by Poland (actually forced upon them) until after the "liberation" of Poland in 1944/45 and through the 1950s. Soviet weapons were not standardized in the Polish Army in 1939. The idea of the Poles on the Western Front using Soviet weaponry would have been nearly as exotic as - for example - the Poles on the Western Front using Finnish weaponry.
    • Standardization: In short, if you fight in directly alongside national forces, you typically adopt their standardized weapons. Look at the Western Front: the Free French for example fought with American equipment. The Polish fought with British equipment. Likewise, the French fighting alongside the Red Air Force flew Soviet aircraft (despite being originally dispatched from the UK at the suggestion of De Gaulle) and the Poles fighting alongside the Red Army used Soviet equipment.

    Yes, occasionally you find examples of a single soldier or small group of soldiers on the Allied side using non-standardized weapons that would normally be in short supply but these are exceptions and not "the rule". If you're interested in obscure factoids: despite it being non-standard, a few in the USMC held onto their Johnson M1941s until late in the war. One officer took his Johnson to Iwo Jima and won the MoH for his actions there.
     
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  4. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    There were no unused polish weapons left in 1944. The Brits needed really everything useful back in 1940/41 themselves no matter where it comes from.

    Another question: Why should the Poles start using their equipment in late 1944? They took part in the italian campaign and other campaigns earlier in the war. If they had used it, most of it would be worn thin. Some weapons had a short lifespan.
    And why should anybody uses weapons which weren't adequate to deal with the Wehrmacht of 1939 5 (!) years later?

    With respect: A lot of the polish equipment in 1939 was bad. Small arms were ok, K98 copies for example, but most tanks or planes were simply obsolete. Anti-Tank-Rifles against the tanks of 1944? I don't remember a single remarkably good polish weapon and if it had existed, the Brits would have copied it.

    Where the Poles were maybe the best of all in 1939 was deciphering complex codes like those of the Enigmas. But i don't think this was important around the Arnheim bridge.
     
  5. ww24interest

    ww24interest Member

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    In1944, well yes. The Germans could have used it against our half-tracks m8s stuarts etc. It worked in 1939 as the polish AT rifle did knock out German Panzer I's and II's. Don't forgot 7-13mm of armor on the I's. 5-14 on the II's
     
  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    But by 1944 the PIAT or Panzerfaust was the equipment issued to Polish and German paratoops.
     

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