Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Potential Japanese to German technological sharing...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by USMCPrice, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    7,080
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    Funniest post of the year...Couldn't stop laughing.

    Someone should clue the original writer to the fact that the Japanese were using fairly high avgas (91/92 octane or better) both in engine testing, flight testing, fighters, and bombers. The drop to using low octane avgas did not occur until very late in the Pacific war. Some of the stats are just dead wrong, and most of the engines had severe developmental issues. Had the Germans used them, well, they might have gotten the FW-190A-0 to fly sometime in 1944.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    7,080
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    You also have to taken in the willingness of Japanese companies to listen to the advice the Germans presented...After all, the Nazis were not the only "chosen race," the Japanese thought the same thing about themselves.

    For instance, Aichi had very close ties to Heinkel and Daimler Benz since the 1920's. Aichi maintained and built upon this relationship after the Nazis came to power. As such, they were more willing to actually "listen" to what their German counterparts were saying. This was less so for Mitsubishi and Nakajima. Further, the one thing that the Germans continued to press for, but the Japanese either could not, or would not do, was to arrange their factories so that they were more amenable to utilizing mass production techniques.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    9,105
    Likes Received:
    1,270
    Hey! Japan did lo-tech right!*

    [​IMG]

    *And this was the exact moment that the Japanese decide to go the miniaturization route.
     
  4. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large Patron  

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,484
    Likes Received:
    1,494
    Location:
    God's Country
    Very good point! If we use the signing of the Tripartite Pact for a reasonable start point (which seems to me to be most appropriate), it's too late to have any effect on the Battle of Britain,10 July – 31 October 1940. It might have had an effect on Barbarossa and in North Africa and the Med had it been actively pursued, fortunately for us bureaucracy reared it's ugly head.

    I'd have to disagree, Japan produced some very good aircraft, many with cutting edge technology. The A6M for example; you are correct that the pilots wanted nimble dogfighters, but from my reading extended range was one of the driving factors behind this type not initially having armor and self-sealing tanks, etc. Another design requirement was for a high rate of climb, not a bad feature for a carrier fighter to have. The Japanese understood their theater of operations, they knew of the paucity of operable airfields and the enormous distances required for operational effectiveness and the distances at which the logistical train had to operate.They built the aircraft that met those needs.

    From Chuck Hawks:

    "Not only could the Zero out fight any Allied fighter, it also out-ranged them. Many people do not realize that the Zero was the world's first long range escort fighter. Zeros flew long range bomber escort missions during the war in China, before the Pacific war even began. If the Germans had the long range A6M2 Zero instead of the short range Bf 109E, the outcome of the Battle of Britain might have been very different. As well known as the Zero is, its importance is still under rated by most people.


    The Zero was designed by Jiro Horikoshi to fulfill Japanese Navy requirements for great range, rapid climb, high speed, and above all superior maneuverability. In order to get them, the Zero was designed with a very low wing loading; pilot armor and self sealing fuel tanks were dispensed with to save weight. Japanese fighter pilots gladly gave up such safety features in order to achieve a fighter with superior agility."

    Best Fighter Planes of WWII

    The KI-84 was one of the best fighters of the war, unfortunately for Japan their pilot quality had tanked. The KI-100 was an excellent interceptor, though it was developed as an after thought. B-29's had destroyed the HA-40/HA-140 inline water-cooled (Japanese version of the German DB-601, the engine that powered the Me-109) engine factory, so in just about two weeks they fitted the HA-112 Kinsei radial to the fuselage of a KI-61 Hein and produced a fighter superior to the original in all aspects except top speed (18mph slower).

    Tanks agreed, but then you've also stated they didn't really have a need for a Tiger tank given the war they were fighting.
    Guns agreed, but then German high velocity guns were better than those of all the other players as well.
    Small arms, disagree. Was the K-98 really any better than the Type 99 Arisaka? No. The Type 96 and 99 LMG's were comparable to the Bren, effective and fit well into Japanese tactical doctrine.
    Artillery, disagree. Japan produced and fielded many effective types, optimized for the type of war they were fighting.
    Aircraft, No.
    Radar, debatable. Japan had some good radar sets, but a shortage of nickel made for a high rate of failure with the tubes used in the equipment. At one point the Japanese resorted to melting coinage captured from the British in Hong Kong. So, really more a lack of critical resource than design failure. The British and the US had the best of the war, but even if Japan were producing those sets, a lack of proper filament material for the tubes would have resulted in the same level of unreliability.
    Radios, nope. Japan produced some very good radios, especially aircraft types.
     
  5. USMCPrice

    USMCPrice Idiot at Large Patron  

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,484
    Likes Received:
    1,494
    Location:
    God's Country
    Lou, I too wondered if German arrogance would allow them to readily accept advice from non-Germans. As for German attitudes towards the Japanese, it was not as a superior race towards an inferior race.

    Hitler and Himmler were actually admirers of the Japanese, Hitler as early as 1908 in the aftermath of the Russo-Japanese War expressed admiration for the Japanese. He mentions them several times with respect and admiration in Mein Kampf. In his last will and testament he made the following statement:

    "Pride in one's own race – and that does not imply contempt for other races – is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own. They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them."

    Hitler had the title "Honorary Aryan" bestowed upon the Japanese people, other Germans routinely referred to them as "Aryans of the East", and "Herrenvolk (Master Race) of the Orient"

    I think one of the more interesting "what if's" is how the Japanese nation would have developed had the western nations not marginalized it. During the Boxer Rebellion the Japanese were noted for their discipline and fighting ability, they were also noted for being less prone to rape, pillage, robbery, etc. than the western armies (Russians were the worst) even protecting Chinese civilians on many occasions. Then the Russo-Japanese War of 1904/05, Britain and Germany in particular were impressed with them, Germany even sending a mission to study them. Britain was rightfully proud as they were Japan's mentors and Japan tried to emulate them. Russia had been an enemy since 1861 when Imperial Russia attempted to seize Tsushima Island. Russian expansion into Manchuria forced Japan to look towards Korea as a buffer zone between the Home Islands and Russia controlled Manchuria. The Russian defeat in 1905 led to an increase in Japanese imperial ambitions, they were emulating what they saw done by their mentors, the British and Americans.US President Theodore Roosevelt even commented in 1905 that, "Japan is the only nation in Asia that understands the principles and methods of Western civilization". Then WWI, Japan was one of Britain's stanchest allies. They even denuding the naval forces they deemed crucial for protecting the Home Islands in order to meet British requests for additional naval support in the Mediterranean. The first crack in the bond occurred when Japan's request for a statement in the Treaty of Versailles confirming racial equality was opposed by the British Commonwealth and the US.

    Japan proposed the following clause:
    "The equality of nations being a basic principle of the League of Nations, the High Contracting Parties agree to accord as soon as possible to all alien nationals of states, members of the League, equal and just treatment in every respect making no distinction, either in law or in fact, on account of their race or nationality."

    A majority of the delegates voted in support of the amendment, though neither the US nor Britain supported it. President Wilson over ruled it. Japan was understandably angered. Makino Nobuaki, the Japanese delegate stated, "We are not too proud to fight but we are too proud to accept a place of admitted inferiority in dealing with one or more of the associated nations. We want nothing but simple justice." Demonstrations against the slight broke out in Japan.
    Many historians point to this event as leading Japan away from influence by the western powers and into a nationalistic stance. Postwar Japan was seen as a competitor by the British and the US for cheap resources from Asia, (there are a number of Congressional hearings during the 20's and 30's into critical resources that are really interesting reading). This lead to Britain failing to renew its treaty with Japan in 1923, something Japan again viewed as a betrayal.

    I could go into another long spiel as to how Japanese attitudes towards Chinese civilians evolved from their compassionate treatment during the Boxer Rebellion to the brutality exhibited during WWII, but the wife is insisting I take care of a couple of chores.
     
    CAC and green slime like this.
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,839
    Likes Received:
    1,495
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    'Ehrenarier' (honorary Aryan).
    A useful term deployed by the racially obsessed state to overcome some pragmatic difficulties in dealing with allies, but I believe it's usage for political niceties never replaced core Nazi contempt for the Japanese. Too many twists and turns of Nazi racial theory required, really, to classify Japanese people as other than untermensch. No matter how hard they sometimes tried to do so

    Seem to recall that the deal struck to send Japan a Tiger was overpriced and rather arrogantly laid out, especially since it was never delivered. Will endeavour to scan in some paperwork later.
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    7,080
    Likes Received:
    1,372
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    The price was for a fully equipped Tiger + all associated technical drawings & what not, so the cost was not that over-inflated.

    Who was the more arrogant, the Germans who sold the Tiger, or the Japanese who thought they could get the Tiger home despite Allied control of the sea with no problem?
     
  8. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,839
    Likes Received:
    1,495
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    Merely in passing:
    The AGK defined the fully kitted out price to armed forces of a Tiger 1 with 92rds of 88m, 4,500rds MG, 192rdsMp ammunition, radios & optic as 300,000RM
    The price offered to Japanese allies was 645,000RM
    Paid in full February 1944,
    Cost was broken down as such:
    Engine: 13k RM
    Gearbox etc.: 8.3k
    Hull: 54k
    Turret: 26k
    Turret assembly: 20k
    Chassis assembly: 124k
    Tracks: 7k
    Gun: 22k
    Ammunition: 9k
    Optics: 2.9k
    Radios: 3k
    MGs: 1.1k
    The balance was distributed among assorted firms involved as 'profit'
    33.166k was charged for packing & shipping.
    Vehicle placed at the disposal of the German army on 21/08/44

    1514760487930-fcc8f947-5b46-4534-b711-d438349a90b5.jpg 1514760246306-4713ce5b-f258-42a3-94ae-eb8649d5243d.jpg

    The point is not really about the costs, though, is it.
    The point is about a certain condescension in the way the deal was done. Not in the manner of dealing with an ally, more a tradesman.

    No matter how good a Japanese technical idea might have been, it would have to be masked somehow so as not to leave a bad taste in a racially fixated system.
    Wochensau newsreels saying how some splendid new concept had come from Japanese scientists? Seems unlikely.
    'Ehrenarier - They're currently great as they're currently fighting the enemy! But we all know they're not really as good as us...'
     
  9. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Patron  

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    13,107
    Likes Received:
    1,977
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I agree with you Adam. Hitler, Himmler, and the rest were so invested in racial purity (never mind how they looked) that they were bound to see the Japanese as "untermenschen". The Japanese, as per Hotta in her book Japan 1941, admired the Germans for there military prowess, but I don't think it was reciprocated. The technology of the Japanese was of little interest to the Nazis. They weren't going to build aircraft carriers, and the aviation technology was really no better than what the Germans already had.
     

Share This Page