Question for Tony Williams

I'm just curious.How would modern Chobham armor hold up to the German 88?I would guess the 88 would be defeated easily.
Also,at what point in time would the 88 have become obsolete?

 

whilst we are picking his brains

which WW2 has the best muzzle velocity and presumably given the best solid penetrator ammo the best penetration?

And as a comparison whats the difference in muzzle velocity between the ww2 guns like the 88, 17lb'r and panther 75 and a modern MBT gun like on the M1 or challanger or T80

FNG

 

As I understand it, of guns firing full-calibre steel shot the 88mm L/71 of the Tiger II was the best hole-puncher in WW2 (although the 17 pdr matched its penetration almost exactly by using APDS).

However, I don't think that would have made much of an impression on the frontal armour of even a Chieftain tank of the 1960s, and the current Challenger is in an entirely different league. It could well get through the side or rear armour, but I really don't know.

The 88mm might have remained useful into the mid-1950s, given updated ammo like APDS.

Muzzle velocities - well, the 88mm L/71 managed 3,340 fps; the Panther's 75mm L/70 3,070 fps; the 17 pdr 2,900 fps (solid steel shot - APDS was 3,950 fps). A modern 120mm APFSDS loading hits 5,500+ fps.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

On the front armor of an Abrams or Challenger 2, I think all a WW2 88 would do nothing but scratch paint, and maybe dent the armor a bit. On the other hand, the Abrams' A3 round would probably crunch through a King Tiger's front armor like it was cheap plastic. I mean, we're talking an estimated penetration performance of 960mm of modern armor here!
Still, if anyone would like to prove me dead wrong, then they're welcome to.

 

You are right - a modern APFSDS would go straight through a Tiger and out the other side...

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

whats the weight difference between a ww2 88 L71 solid core round and a 120mm modern round as I suppose weight is the other factor as well as muzzle velocity?

FNG

 

There are two oher factors of equal importance: the shape and material of the projectile.

Modern APFSDS projectiles are not only made of an advanced tungsten alloy or DU, they are also very narrow, like crossbow bolts. So all of that energy is focused on a very small area of the armour.

See the drawing from my website to illustrate the different types of AP projectile:


Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

I am aware that the shape and design matters and is very advanced, but I was just wondering about the basic weight of the shell.

I suppose the only fair comparison would be HE charges to give an idea of the differences

FNG

 

If an A3 round hit a Tiger's side armor and went through, it still might have enough power to knock out an APC, or Hummer, or some other lightly-armored vehicle.

 

The flight projectile/penetrator of modern 120mm APFSDS weighs around 4.0-4.6 kg, compared with 10.2 kg for the full-calibre 88mm AP projectile. However, that is not really significant in comparing performance. Due to the denser and harder material, smaller frontal area and much higher velocity of the APFSDS, it will penetrate many, many times the thickness of armour of the 88mm. And because of the short flight time and flat trajectory, it will also have a much higher hit probability against moving targets, even given equivalent sighting systems.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

What of they built an 88mm shell using modern technology (ie moder steel, propellant etc)? In other words, given the same shell characteristics would the 88mm have the same effect as a 120mm?

 

No.

The maximum performance of a gun is determined by the weight and composition of the propellant, the calibre (the bigger the better), the strength of the gun and the barrel length.

The 88mm L/71 used 6.8 kg of propellant, a modern 120mm around 8-8.6 kg. With the same projectile design and assuming everything else were equal, a 120mm will generate about two-thirds more muzzle energy than the 88mm.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum