Rape, Murder and Looting, were they prosecuted crimes?

Hello, over the last few months I have done some reading about German military justice. I have been educating myself on just what crimes that German military personnel might commit were prosecuted, and what crimes were ignored.

So far I have not found a single reference to a German soldier or officer prosecuted for the following crimes:

1. Rape
2. Abuse of civilians
3. Murder of civilians
4. Looting

Are you familiar with any examples of German soldiers being prosecuted for these crimes? If so can you please direct me to a source?

I'm not just putting this posting up as a way of bashing German soldiers. I am sincerely trying to determine if German soldiers were held responsible for crimes they committed against civilians. Of particular interest to me are event that occurred on the Soviet front.

There is a common perception that the German military was a strictly lawful organization in which unacceptable behavior was punished. If that were true I would expect to find many prosecutions for the above list of crimes.

Thank you in advance for your help. - James

 

Hang on old chap....this is a reocuring theme on here...

You will get the responses you require..

We have discussed this many times, but unlike in other forums without the flames..

You will get some good information on this. But I will leave it to others, my take on this is theoretical rather than practical, the guys on here are loaded with facts on this matter...Hopefully they will respond shortly...

Regards

 

Urgh, I'll look forward to the replies. If this matter has been discussed before perhaps it would be easier if those old threads were simply revived. Would it be difficult for you to locate them? - James

 

From the exhibit "Verbrechen der Wehrmacht"

"According to Hitler, the ideological goals of this war called for another form of warfare, to which international humanitarian law and the laws and customs of war could no longer apply. Acording to Generaloberst Franz Halder, reporting in his war diary on Hitler's standpoint, this war was 'not a question of military tribunals. [...] The struggle will differ greatly from the struggle in the West. In the East, severity is mildness for the future.'

The Wehrmacht leadership subsequently issued key orders in May and June 1941, in order to secure the 'unprecedented severity' of operations in the East that Hitler had called for. By implementing the 'Kriegsgerichtsbarkeitserlaß' (Decree on Military Jurisdiction) and the 'Kommissarbefehl' (Commissar Order), the Wehrmacht suspended key elements of the laws and customs of war in effect at the time and created the necessary preconditions for a hitherto unprecedented war of racial ideology and annihilation."


Excerpt of Wehrmacht Order "Concerning the exercise of martial jurisdiction and procedure in the area 'Barbarossa' and special military measures.", dated May 13, 1941, over one month prior to "Barbarossa":

(...)
II. Treatment of offences committed against inhabitants by members of the Armed Forces and its employees.

1. With regard to offences committed against enemy civilians by members of the Wehrmacht and its employees prosecution is not obligatory even where the deed is at the same time a military crime or offence.

2. When judging such offences, it must be borne in mind, whatever the circumstances, that the collapse of Germany in 1918, the subsequent sufferings of the German people and the fight against National Socialism which cost the blood of innumerable supporters of the movement, were caused primarily by Bolshevik influence and that no German has forgotten this fact.

3. Therefore the judicial authority will decide in such cases whether a disciplinary penalty is indicated, or whether legal measures are necessary. In the case of offences against inhabitants it will order a court martial only if maintenance of discipline or security of the Forces call for such a measure. This applies for instance to serious offences originating in lack of self control in sexual matters, or in a criminal disposition, and to those which indicate that the troops are threatening to get out of hand. Offences which have resulted in senseless destruction of billets or stores or other captured material to the disadvantage of our Forces should as a rule be judged no less severely.

The order to institute proceedings requires in every single case the signature of the Judicial Authority.

4. Extreme caution is indicated in assessing the credibility of statements made by enemy civilians"


Emphasis are mine. That'll explain some of your questions.

Cheers,

[ 16. May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Hi Andy, thank you for posting this information. I am familiar with the Fuehrer Decree you posted.

The specific information I am looking for, was a German soldier, any German soldier, ever prosecuted for rape, murder, abuse or looting?

If some examples of prosecution can be found we can extrapolate that if there are some examples, there most likely must be more examples. However if no examples can be found, the obvious conclusion is that German soldiers simply were never held responsible for their criminal behavior. I have done more then a little reading on this topic and so far I have not found a single instance of a German soldier being prosecuted for crimes against civilians. I expected to find some examples from the occupation of France, but none have surfaced even there.

I have had no trouble finding references to German soldiers being held responsible for crimes such as desertion, defeatism, failure to perform their military duties, etc. In fact, ~30,000 German soldiers were executed during WWII for criminal offenses. However the only crimes they seemed to be prosecuted for all entailed failure to perform their military duties, never crimes against civilians.

I've cross-posted this message on three other forums. I'm hoping someone will have the information I have been looking for on-hand. - James

 

James,

I´m not sure if these things were ever going to court as the Germans had the idea that if it´s not according to an obey you´ll be shot. especially the SS I think had it this way, even in Russia (?) The Idea was to kill and rape the country but if you did it your own way;you´re dead meat..

 

Kai-Petri, is what you are saying that German soldiers were prevented from abusing civilians because if they did so they would be shot on sight by their fellow soldiers? I can't imagine such a thing occurred often at all. People tend to take care of their buddies. If German soldiers were going to be held responsible for abuse of civilians it would need to involve a court proceeding. I believe if the courts were not involved, then there was no punishment. - James

 

Actually James,

The judgement would be the same for stealing food or raping a woman. Death, unless ordered. You have to understand the German military code. Otherwise it´s useless. You know German officers were shot for retreating without Fuhrer´s orders...ecept for Haüsser...

 

Actually James has opened a good thread here..

We have seen many discussions on the rights and wrongs of killing civilians and commiting crimes in war etc, argued out the finer points of rules of law and Geneva convention etc, including the merits of parisan and resitance warfare the rights and wrongs and the consequences..And although Kai has a point and probably many German troops were as our Yank cousins would say...fragged by their own...Was any German military uniformed serviceman brought up to military court and therfore German military rule and punished for Rape, executions or whatever and paid for his/her crime if a crime was recognised...??

Doing numerous searches with many wildcards on internet just in last hour or so...I can find none..yes desertion, but that is against your own comrades..for crimes against the enemy, recognised crimes by whatever international treaty you want to quote..I can find none thus far..!!!

We have been over the reasoning of this sort of thing before...many of us coming to the conclusion, in war laws are just pieces of paper, the victor though will have his justice in the form of war crime tribunals but that is for later, when fighing a war, the so called rules of war are just paper rules..war is ugly..

But as James says...does anyone have any information on actual cases of German troops being held to account by German military law for any atrocities they may have commitied against the enemy or civilians?

 

Fair enough, Urgh!

I mean I´ll search for Germans included in atrocities and doomed by the German war law for rapes and you´ll find the US army soldiers put in charge for rapes in Normandy and hanged in 1944
...should make some 500 altogether of which 50 were hanged..Not so one-sided,is it?As the women were French as well...Not German...

 

Think your looking at this the wrong way Kai, I am certainly not in the business of saying the Germans were any better or any worse than the allies. I am just commenting on James's question, are there indeed any particulars recorded of German troops being courtmartialled and paying for war type crimes against the enemy?

There either are or there are not.

I can find none so far in looking, but that doesnt mean to say there were not, James is just asking the question, and I must say I cannot answer him, can you Kai?

I am actually aware of allied troops at times being no better..there are many cases of negro troops in Britian being executed for rape of local British women under the orders of Eishenhower..One such famous case of a shoot out in Welsh pub where black soldier was shot dead by own military for his trouble..

James has asked us a question, I cannot find anything, if you can that would be ok, I hope you do, I;m still looking.

Many US troops were executed in UK during the war as you undoubtedlby know also, but that was for crimes agains own side not the enemy to my recollection.

Indeed your example of rapes in Normandy, that was allied troops against allied nationals not the enemy, no better and no excuse. But they are documented are they not?

 

I thank you Urgh!

But..


The war in the east was meant to kill every one... the lesser beings. Yet the Germans had their rule of army whether or not it was official to kill or not...to my knowledge the German Army rules were not kind..You acted wrong you were shot...you were given orders..you got a medal!
Simple as that! One Finnish SS-man was shot during his break-and-enter of a kitchen in 1941 because it was forbidden! The other was wounded and survíved by miracle. This is the rules of Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS.The Prussian rules?!

The otherwise rapes etc in the east were according to Hitler´s laws. And not under judgement. In the west I have not heard of rapes but attrocities as such I have by Waffen-SS.If you have more knowledge Urgh I´d be interested to know.Like I said not unheard of but usually awarded by death.

The rapes in Normandy were covered by the allied "goodness". I have not read about it a lot as it has been swept away. Understandable. I just hope the criminals got their penalty.

 

Dont know about Normandy but they were not swept away in the UK, many an American soldier payed for his actions in that area in Britain during second world war..On Eisenhowers direct orders.

And hey, thats not to say Brit troops didnt commit serious crimes in uniform in their own country either.

But getting back to James opening of this thread.
The case that Fragging went on within the German forces is undoubtedly a truth..instant justice probably meted out when necessary.

That however doesnt answer, well it actually does answer James question which is was anyone charged or convicted...No matter the way the war was fought or what instant justice handed out, you are proving James right in his acertion that there are no documented cases, which is all he seems to be asking.

 

K-P, where have you read that any German soldier was shot for theft or rape of a civilian? I don’t mean to be confrontational here, but the thing is I just don’t think this happened. I have been doing some light research on this topic now for a month or so and I have found many references to Germans being shot for cowardice, desertion, retreating against orders, etc, but no, absolutely no references to German soldiers being shot for anything they did to civilians. And we all know it was not at all uncommon for German soldiers to mistreat civilians. - James

 

K-P, of course American soldiers were guilty of rape and abuse of civilians. Anytime you put millions of young men in uniform and give them power you are going to find things like this happening. The thing is, you can find instances of American soldiers actually being held accountable for their crimes. About 140 American soldiers were executed during WWII for crimes committed. I assume some of these crimes included rape and murder.

Now try to find comparable information about German troops. I've been trying. I know ~30,000 German soldiers were executed during the war. I've found a lot of information about German soldiers being tried for everything from AWOL to homosexuality. But no references, not a single reference, to any German soldier being tried for rape, murder or abuse of a civilian or looting. I just don't think Germans were held responsible for these crimes. They were free to commit these crimes as long as they were ready for military duty. - James

[ 16. May 2003, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: James Quinn ]

 

Hi James--I just finished reading a book that is currently for sale at Barnes and Nobles Bookstore.

This book was written by a German soldier who fought on the Eastern Front as a Machinegunner. He was awarded both classes of the Iron Cross--before he got into trouble for denouncing Herman Goring. The book is called: either Hitler's Prisoner or Prisoner of Hitler--or something like that. I'll try to go there and find the book again and get the correct title later today.

Anyway, this soldier was thrown into a prison in Berlin for denouncing Goring. All he basically said was that Goring was a liar--so he was arrested while he was in the hospital recovering from wounds he recieved because of a grenade thrown by a Russian soldier. I forget what division he was in--but it was an inf Div that was descimated then surrendered at Stalingrad a less than a year later.

He was sent to a prison in Berlin and shared a cell with 7 other German prisoners.

One was a deserter, another was in prison for giving a Russian Jewish boy--a slice of bread, another was in prison because he was a Jehovahs Witness, another was there fro drunken behavior that including the accidental killing of a German woman and I think her child.

Anyway, all of them were executed except for the author who, recieved a sentence of 18 months in prison. He was released sometime in 1944. Rode out the rest of the war in some military unit. Had surrendered and was quickly released.

This man and his family now live in the USA.

To answer your question--yes--German soldiers did get prosecuted by their military--for crimes--but not all the time as is well known.

 

Of course there were many military trials and men imprisonned within the Wehrmacht. At least in the West and during the first years of the war.

No man was allowed to steal anything from a civilian house and raping meant immediate execution. There were many men sent to military prisons after the first campaigns of the war for their bad behaviour. Those same men entered again in action in 1941-1942 in penal regiments and were slaughtered by frontal attacks and suicide missions. Field marshal Von Runstedt used many documents of court martials in the German Army at Nuremberg in 1945-1946.

General Guderian and many others specifically ordered to their men that they MUST:
-Behave as gentlemen.
-Treat the ladies and men respectfully.
-Pay for everything they consume.
-Do not attack verbally nor physically to ANYBODY.

This was during the occupation of France, Holland and Belgium. And indeed, German officers and soldiers followed these orders and behave as normal tourists in Paris, by example. They assisted to religious ceremonies and visited the museums as normal tourists.

If we speak about the Soviet Union, that's a different tale...

 

Some info


Extracted from the Feldgendarmerie regulations (Feldgendarmerievorschrift) July 1940:

http://www.dpage.dial.pipex.com/new_page_3.htm

Preventing punishable behaviour e.g. unauthorized actions, and robbing the dead and wounded.

Feldgendarmes will acquire the necessary knowledge (physical characteristics) of their assigned area as rapidly as possible and will gain the trust of population through local customs and practices.


http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-201-05.shtml

Field Marshal VON RUNDSTEDT:

The rules of warfare and of International Law as set down in the Geneva Convention and the Hague Rules on Land Warfare were always binding for us older leaders. Their strict observance by the troops was demanded, and very severe measures were taken in case of excesses which in war can probably take place in all armies. The court-martial records of the various divisions can give information on this point. Property of the inhabitants was ordered to be respected. Severe punishment for plundering had to be meted out, if only in the interests of maintaining discipline amongst our own troops. Raping of women and other inhuman acts were also subject to severe punishment. What we could do to support the inhabitants of enemy countries affected by the war was done, as far as was possible. The wounded or conquered enemy was no longer considered as such, but had a claim to decent treatment. We ordered that the battle itself was to be fought chivalrously. We old officers who lived through the time of cavalry battles and of infantry bayonet attacks witnessed the increasing mechanisation of warfare with regret. Today the bravest men and the best troops are helpless against the force of mechanisation. All the more did we leaders believe that where there was fighting on land the old soldierly, decent forms of battle should be maintained, and that they should be impressed on the troops again and again.

As senior soldier of the German Army, I will say this: We accused leaders were trained in the old soldierly traditions of decency and chivalry. We lived and acted according to them, and we endeavoured to hand them down to the younger officers.


The evidence showed that the looting and spoliation which had been carried out in the various occupied countries, were not the acts of individuals, but were carried out by the German Government and the Wehrmacht for the needs of both. It was carried out on a larger scale than was possible by individuals and the strictness of the regulations addressed to individuals in the army, as shown by the evidence, seemed to have been sometimes based upon the idea that in looting, the individual was not depriving the victim of the property, but was depriving the Reich and the Wehrmacht.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/ghctrial4.htm
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http://www.internetmodeler.com/2002/december/new-releases/book_german_security.htm

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http://www.lssah.com/feldgendarme.html

 

Hi, Kai, thats interesting stuff, and I dont think anyone is questioning the fact that the German army had a handbook or whatever on what troops should and should not do, thats not in question.

The question is and as far as I can see it still remains, is there any documented evidence of a German soldier commiting such an act and being court maritialled or tried anyother way for that act by the German amry....a manual is one thing, the proof of it being put into effect is another.

I seem to remember reading of German troops being tried and punished for such actions in Channel islands, and if so that will answer James's question, Im still looking but as far as I can see so far, no one has answered his question in the positeve....ie that they were tried and punished for such acts.

This is not a play on words on my part, I just havent seen anyone put up any evidence to counter that fact. I believe they were, but I am still having problems finding any.

..................................................

The evidence showed that the looting and spoliation which had been carried out in the various occupied countries, were not the acts of individuals, but were carried out by the German Government and the Wehrmacht for the needs of both. It was carried out on a larger scale than was possible by individuals and the strictness of the regulations addressed to individuals in the army, as shown by the evidence, seemed to have been sometimes based upon the idea that in looting, the individual was not depriving the victim of the property, but was depriving the Reich and the Wehrmacht.

-------------------------------------------------
And Kai as much as I admire the great soldier, the above statement by him is just a cop out...larger scale...by the German Government....
than was possible by individuals....if not individuals involved then who did he think carried out these actions? Indviduals acting on behalf of govt or nation are still individuals, now he is playing on words.

And yes, the allies were just as capable. But that statement is a classic, unworthy of the great soldier he was.

 

Ahh..humble pie on my part...those words were not Rundstedst words were they?