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Russin officer executions

Discussion in 'Leaders of World War 2' started by Canadian_Super_Patriot, Apr 22, 2005.

  1. Canadian_Super_Patriot

    Canadian_Super_Patriot recruit

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    I think stalin killed 80% of his officer core because of what Nazi spies told him , and since germany was russias ally , and stalin didn't want to be overthrown , or have a coup , he listened and executed a lot of his officers. Dosen't it strike you as odd that germany invaded a couple years later? looks like germany wanted to weaken it's future nemesis. I could be wrong , but for the moment i think im right , because i recently heard something on this , please reply , i really want response on this.
     
  2. cheeky_monkey

    cheeky_monkey New Member

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    stalins purge of the officers of the red army occured prior to the soviet german non agression pact of aug 1939.

    so what you have heard is incorrect in my opinion
     
  3. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    The purge had nothing to do with any German real or imaginary attempts.

    Stalin´s army was full of old bolsheviks – by then big generals, who understood nothing about modern warfare. Their only military experience was partisan-like Civil War, after the revolution. Most were idiots or criminals sitting on their high posts. Unusable in a real war. Stalin needed their posts for the younger generation, trained in modern military schools (there were innumerable high-quality military schools in USSR then. Even german officers – many generals of WW2 were trained there).

    Some old bolshevik generals, however, might also become politically dangerous. And Stalin was a cautious man.

    Both categories were purged. This is a very short, but, so far as I know, also a very true explanation of the oficer purges.
     
  4. Canadian_Super_Patriot

    Canadian_Super_Patriot recruit

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    well the germans didn't know the generals were obsolete , it would still leave the red army with to few officers , even if they were idiots ,but thanks for the replies. 8) Well, a lot of the czarist officers were well versed in military combat , but still a lot of them were idiots.That we know is true. 8) :) :) 8)
     
  5. McLaren

    McLaren New Member

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    Stalin screwed everything coz he killed or put in prison all of his best officers. When germany attacked he realised that.
     
  6. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    McLaren. I tried to tell What I have found out myself and what I was told by my Grandfather. If you look at the "big" names who disappeared in the purge and look at their CVs, you´ll see the light.
    In the meantime, please, tell me just a few names of the best commanders who perished.
    You see, Stalin was preparing the final solution for Europe. He was not interested in getting rid of his best executioners.
    Don´t you ever underestimate Stalin. The man survived almost 30 years, being a Godfather among power-thirsty gangsters. It should have been acknowledged in Guinness record book.
     
  7. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    My Canadian patriotic friend!
    Please, don´t think that Russians are or were idiots.

    Take my Grandfather. He had been a Soviet officer. Then - a successful officer in another army (not a bad army, professionally speaking).
    He has never expressed himself in derogatory terms about Soviet officers generally, incl. those from the Tsarist army (a few remained as instructors, teachers etc.).
    Nor should you.

    It´s not exactly because USSR lacked officers in 1941. They were good enough, but the system did not encourage creative thinking and the commisars were the ones who really had command. And the military doctrine in 1941 neglected defensive training altogether. Nobody in RKKA in 1941 was prepared to have to defend their own land in any way.
     
  8. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Surely you have a valid point, but an objective evaluation of the officers in question could be more useful here than the judgment of a deceased veteran whose legacy you are quoting from memory. I'm not trying to give your grandfather any less respect than he is due but perhaps you could try to bring some other sources into the debate? Your being a spokesperson for your grandfather isn't showing your full potential. ;)
     
  9. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    Maybe it does....

    Btw. Not a spokesperson - a spokesMAN, if anything. :lol:

    OK. Source nr 1.: Viktor Suvorov:"Otjistjenie : zatjem Stalin obezglavil svoju armiju?" (Purge: why did Stalin behead his army?).
    A very comprehensive review of the quality of the "old" commanders and of other reasons why they should "go". I´m not sure if the book was published in English. It is truly devastating for those involved officers, not tleast - Tukhachevsky.
    Voila´.
     
  10. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Merci!

    See? :D
     
  11. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    Rien du tout, mon cher :smok:


    I do see and appreciate. Everything finds its way to my little, black notebook.
     
  12. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    We have had a similar conversation on this before somewhere...
    A guy called Sarco wiped the floor with me over it, pointing out the actual combat records of the guys purged.

    Cautious or Paranoid?
     
  13. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    Cautious more than paranoid, I would say. At least in the 1930s. Later it became increasingly sickly, as he grew older. It´s always unavoidable.

    remember that he was a kind of godfather ruling gangsters not a bit less bloodthirsty than himself. He was aware of their lust for power and everlasting hate for the superiors.
    Paranoia is a sort of disease. A man who manages to stay in power is such an environment for almost 30 ys is definitely not sick. The USSR was sick as a system.
     
  14. Revere

    Revere New Member

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    what you expect he's a crazy commie hitler did stuff like that to and all stalin like was death and destruction
     
  15. Canadian_Super_Patriot

    Canadian_Super_Patriot recruit

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    everyone has their opinion , many officers were bad , many officers were excellent. It still weakened the officer core and the military as a whole , and i still believe it was set up by the germans. Yes , the russian army is often considered to be incompetent and stupid(ex: Enemy at the gates) i think many russian officers took the blame because of the commisars , because they discouraged iniative nad downplayed suggestions , all in all The higher ups in the soviet upper ring were to blame(well , "most of the responsibility") because other people made mistakes as well . My opinion :)
     
  16. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    If you are planning a completely new kind of war (it was a Russian equivalent of blitzkrieg, almost identical doctrine - a so called "doctrine of deep thrust") and your army is a nursery of old revolutionaries with very long CVs from Civil War, the only thing you can do in order to get rid of them and make place for fresh blood (without risking a coup détat) is to prosecute them one by one or in groups on a basis of some fictitious complot.
    Morover: If you have your officers to obey you, they have to owe you. Be "your" men. Most old bolsheviks weren´t. Many undoubtedly resented Stalin´s usurpation of power. Stalin was smart enough to get rid of potential Stauffenbergs in good time. From the end of the purge until the start of the planned war was enough time for the new people to become real commanders.

    Remember: practically all the brilliant commanders of 1943,44 and 45 got their high posts after the purge. They were really brilliant, relatively young and well educated in new methods of warfare. Without the purge they would never have gotten their chance.
    Stalin´s officer purge was a rational albeit cruel act of a machiavellian statesman.
     
  17. PMN1

    PMN1 recruit

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    There is an alternate history thread on Bob Henneman's Battlecruisers page

    http://p069.ezboard.com/falltheworldsba ... 1459.topic

    where its been pointed out that if Barbarossa was launched a year later then most if not all of the eventual 'big hitters' in Stalin's forces would have been six foot under.
     
  18. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    It is interesting to see that this movie takes a long time to show how the Russian officers acted without caution and thinking nothing of the lives of their men to accomplish a local and seemingly meaningless objective, and subsequently takes absolutely no time to explain why, or how, the Russians eventually did win the battle of Stalingrad! :lol:
     
  19. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    I don´t think the dinosaurs of revolution, mostly without any formal military education, would have done better.
    Nobody can of course approve killing of 30 000 people (officers, I mean) but the army needed fresh blood and the new commanders were really well prepared for a modern war. Stalin used Kirov´s murder to get rid of the officers also. This was his style of doing politics.

    Please, Gents! Don´t forget that Stalin was preparing the war real seriously. If he had judged that the oldings would have been useful, he wouldn´t have touched them.
    He was a murderer, a thief, a wife-molester, but in politics he was extraordinarily pragmatic. The timing was also good: the purge stopped in 1938. All talking about further killings is groundless. He gave "his boys" three full years to practice being generals and they did so.

    Of course, you can say, there were mistakes. Many talented people have probably been killed or gulaged. Rokossovsky f.ex. sat in gulag from 1937 to march 1940. Returned to the army in his previous rank and was a commander of 9th mechanized (tank) corps (where my Grandfather was captain and knew him personally).
    See, another example that Stalin was seriously preparing for war before Hitler smashed France: IN MARCH 1940 Rokossovsky is rehabilitated, returned to the army and put in the most critical part of the front (Lvov Salient). Who says Stalin was not preparing for war with Germany?
     
  20. Canadian_Super_Patriot

    Canadian_Super_Patriot recruit

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    some russian "stauffenburgs" wre undoughtibly killed but a lot of innocent officers payed the price as well . Stalin was far from smart , his military tactics were crude , he was a amateur commander , all he said was keep attacking . Or randomly hold futile positions , and fight to the last man , kind of tactics. Plus he killed 30million of his own people and most loyal followers just for the hell of it (not because of stupidity but evil, a little off topic.) well , if it wasn't for that stupidity , stalingrad may have fallen , kind of an irony i suppose .
     

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