Sandomierz, 13 August 1944. Tiger II vs IS-2.

This was the first action that took place between the Tiger II and the IS-2.

11 IS-2s from the 71st Independent Heavy Tank Regiment were attacked by 14 Tiger IIs from the Schwere Heeres Panzer Abteilung 501. They were engaged at a range of about 600m. Four Tiger IIs were destroyed and 7 damaged against three IS-2s destroyed and 7 damaged.

 

At close ranges the 122mm gains the advantage over the Tiger II's gun in punch and penetrating power, so that would explain this advantageous outcome. Guns that work by sheer weight of shell naturally do so better when closer. At longer ranges the IS2 would be very close to dead meat if it encountered a King Tiger.

 

The outcome might have been more advantageous for the Tiger IIs if the fighting had taken place at longer ranges. But at how much longer range could the Tiger IIs have engaged the IS-2s ?

"Russian Tanks of World War II" by Bean/Fowler mentions an incident where an IS-2 withstood five direct hits from the 88mm L/71 gun of an Elefant from a range of 1500-2000m. It was finally knocked out by another Elefant at a range of 700m.

 

Sounds like 'knock knock, who's there?'

 

Wow, this is the first time I've heard of any tank withstanding a hit from the 88 L/71. Biased sources or is this an exlusive event?

 

Skua - "Thank You".

Penetration for standard high-velocity weapons, simply put, is a matter of mass times velocity. PK=PH*PP*PL.

The 122mm Soviet gun was awesome and at engagement ranges of under 1,000 yards was, in my opinion, the most lethal tank gun of thw war.

As far as the penetration goes at range. Look at my graph under "Ballistic Protection Values of Sloped Armor" and do the math.

:smok:

 

Advantageous? Sounds to me like the fight was more or less a draw.

 

An interesting aside to this skirmish is what happened the day before on 12th August. A hidden T34/85 of 53rd Guards Tank Brigade ambushed the King Tigers of 501 and knocked out 3 of them near Ogledo. The ammunition stored inside the turrets caused fatal explosions killing many crew members. Following this, the order was given to store no 88mm amunition in the turret any more. August 11th and 12th 1944 saw the first combat action of the King Tigers of 501. Schwere Panzer Abteilung 501 was the first battalion to be completely equipped with King Tigers.

Interestingly, my source (Tigers In Combat I by Wolfgang Schneider) states that only 8 King Tigers were combat available for the action on 12th August. I don't know how another 9 became ready by the 13th after the ambush the day before but I guess they must have done.What is your source Skua? Any extra info on this?

 

I'll bet that T-34/85 crew got medals for that!

 

One more King Tiger was knocked out than the amount of IS2s lost. But the IS2s were easily replaced, while the King Tigers were completely lost when they were knocked out. The outcome is really much more in the Russians' favor in you consider the total production number of both tanks.

 

My source is ( again ) "Russian Tanks in World War II" by Bean/Fowler. I´m afraid it doesn´t go more into detail. Jentz/Doyle writes in "Kingtiger Heavy Tank 1942-45" that Schwere Heeres Panzer Abteilung 501 had been issued 45 Tiger IIs by August 7 ( starting from July 7 ). They don´t say anything about their operational status or losses, but only 8 operational Tiger IIs on August 12 doesn´t sound like much on this background.

 

Skua,

In my source it states that 501 picked up 45 King Tigers between 25th June and 7th August.

June 25th = 6 King Tigers

July 7th = 12 King Tigers

July 10th = 9 King Tigers

July 12th = 2 King Tigers

July 14th = 2 King Tigers

July 26th = 2 King Tigers (from Sch Pz Abt 505)

August 4th = 8 King Tigers

August 7th = 4 King Tigers

It seems that most broke down on 5th August with final drive damage due to a long road march after detrainment at Jedreczewo. The 1st company (with 15 King Tigers) wasn't at the front at this time. It was entrained from Ohrdruf in Germany on the 12th August. I guess that with most of the new King Tigers broken down with teething troubles and the 1st company still in Germany, that would explain why only 8 King Tigers were available for combat on 12th August.

Here is a picture of 501 King Tigers from early August 1944. You can see the transport tracks still on. I guess this was soon after detrainment at Jedreczewo.

 

Interestingly, it seems that slightly more ISU-122s and ISU-152s were produced than the IS-2 tank proper.

4,075 ISU-122/152s were produced.

3,854 IS-2s produced.

Source is Soviet Tanks and Combat Vehicles of WW2 by Zaloga and Grandsen.

 

Shows you that welding some slabs together is always a lot easier than building a turret assembly. The square plate over the mantle at the front of the turret top in IS tanks, was this really such a weak spot people go on about esp in the IS 3s? Seen some pictures of the inside of the turret and you can see daylight in the area.

 

3854 IS-2s are still a lot compared to 489 Tiger IIs.

 

Off the top of my head, I remember reading somewhere that the ISU-122-2 or ISU-122S was produced until 1952 and that the total production of ISU-122s of all types was around 5000.

 

That's true enough, just as it's true of the Allied tank losses on the Western Front. The Americans and British Commonwealth forces could replace any vehicles they lost easily, while the Germans could not.

 

You´re right. The ISU-122 was produced up to 1952, making a total of 3130 ISU-122s in all. The ISU-152 was in production until 1955. A total of 6525 ISU-152s were built.

 

Sorry I meant WW2 production not post war as well.

 

Ok just so everyone is clear on this:
The 88mm L/71 outpenetrated the 122mm DT25 at any range also point blank, but when shooting at extreemly sloped armor such as 60-75* the 122mm DT25 could get really close to the 88mm L/71, because the 122mm DT25 gun had a very high trajectory(Wich decreased the impact angle) and blund nosed projectiles wich were good against slope, but still the 122mm DT25 never beats the 88mm L/71 at any range. (There's a reason the americans after testing the 88mm L/71 at Aberdeen called it the best AT gun of ww2).

The 122mm DT25 wasnt made to be a AT gun, it was made to fire high explosives at enemy infantry, its accuracy and firing rate was pathetic compared to the 88mm L/71.

Ive pulled up my penetration stats for the two guns many times so this is the last time.

These are the penetration stats for the 88mm L/71 and 122mm DT25 against 30* sloped armor:

88mm KwK43 (APCBC) at 30*: 500m=183mm / 1000m=167mm / 1500m=153mm / 2000m=139mm / 2500=131mm / 3000m=124mm.

122mm DT25 (APBC) at 30*: 500m=128mm / 1000m=120mm / 1500m=111mm / 2000m=105mm / 2500m=99mm / 3000m=93mm.

Sources: Jentz, Thomas L: Panzer Truppen Vol 2; Spielberger, Walter J.: Panzerkampfwagen Tiger und seine Abarten and Hogg, Ian V.: German Artillery of World War Two; Tom jentz, Peter Sarson: KingTiger Heavy tank 1942-45; Russian Military Zone; Soviet Guns 1920-1945 and Red Steel. Plus some info from Livingstones and Birds WW2 ballistics and ammunition.

Best regards, KBO