SBD Dauntless aerial victories

In the thread I created about Most overrated Aircraft the subject came up about divebombers. It reminded me about the Air to Air victories attained by the SBD Dauntless. Heres a few snippets of infn 20 Feb 42 a SBD from VS-2 operating off the USS Lexington scored an aerial victory against the Japanese. It shot down a G4M1 bomber. Another SBD finished off another G4M1 that had been damaged by a F4F Wildcat. Some SBDs were also used for Combat Air Patrol work too. Also LtJG John Leppla and his aviation radioman/gunner John Liska are credited with having downed 7 enemy aircraft during the Battle of the Coral Sea on May 8th, 1942, while flying scout duty in their SBD-3. Some accounts put the total at 5 aircraft.The SBD was credited with 138 victories in air-to-air combat. The breakdown was 107 fighters and 31 bombers; carrier-based SBDs destroyed 75 fighters and 31 bombers; land-based SBDs destroyed 32 fighters and 0 bombers.

 

Who did they run into...............................Actually I am surprised at them achieving any kind of air to air victories. That is kind of like saying that the Stuka had racked some air victories.

 

More info from a friend of mine .

The breakdown of victories by year for carrier-based SBD victories was:

1941/42 - 88
1943 - 13
1944 - 5

and

USN/USMC confirmed victories for non-fighter aircraft (not including the SBD's 138) - I suspect that most of these were also credited to gunners:

PB4Y Liberator/Privateer - 306
TBF/TBM Avenger - 98
SB2C/SBW Helldiver - 43
PV Ventura - 20
PBM Mariner - 16
PBY Catalina - 9
PB2Y Coronado - 8
TBD Devastator - 6
SB2U Vindicator - 6

 

Im surprised at the number for the PB4Y Liberator/Privateer!

 

I am sure those aircraft shot down a few enemy aircraft but the numbers sound a bit padded to me. Sorta like the body counts in Viet Nam !
TBD Devastator's got shot down. Perhaps a formation shot down one plane and all six took credit for the lucky hit ?

I would think B-29's would have lots of shoot downs but the others sound too good to be true.

No reflection on you JC ! You can't hit home runs everytime.

 

No prob. Though I usually take claims with a grain of salt this information came from a good friend of mine. Ill have to see where he came by the info. He did state that these were "USN/USMC confirmed victories" so there must be records of them somewhere.

 

You did mention that some of those shot down by these aircraft were already damaged by their escorting fighters, making the shoot downs plausible.

Though the shoot down claims could be exaggerated, it's not entirely impossible for a gunner in a Catalina to shoot down another aircraft.
My dad told me once "Once the bullets start flying, there's no such thing as a bullet with your name on it. All of them are labeled To Whom It May Concern."

I believe him not just because he's my dad. He trained in the SAS Jungle Warfare School in Malaysia and the US Army's Special Warfare School in Fort Bragg, saw action in Indonesia and Mindanao. The Huey he was on once was shot down and I had to visit him as a kid at V. Luna military hospital.

He, along with my aunts and uncles, related stories of their refugee column being strafed by Japanese planes. Everybody just ran looking for cover because nobody can tell whether they were going to get hit or not.

 

Thanks for the link Jeff .

 

U.S.Navy Patrol Plane Aces of WW2

NAME VICTORIES SERVICE UNITS COMMENTS

Sutton, Sheldon L. 7 USN VPB-117 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1944-45.
Porter, Neil C. 6 [4+2] USN VD3 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1943-44
Stevens, Paul F. 6 USN VPB-104 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1944-45.
Bruneau, Paul J. 5 USN VB-115 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1944.
Carter, Jan B. 5 USN VPB-117 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1944-45.
Ganshirt, Paul A. 5 USN VD-3 PB4Y gunner, Pacific, 1943-44.
Hyland, Thomas J. 5 USN VPB-117 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1945.
McGaughley, Harold M. 5 USN VPB-117 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1944-45. KIA.
Miller, William M. 5 [1+4] USN VPB-116 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1944.
Moore, Daniel E. 5 USN VPB-117 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1944-45.
Oliver, William B. 5 [1+4] USN VPB-116 PB4Y cdr, Pacific, 1944.
Thomas, Richard H. 5 USN VPB-117 PB4Y gunner, Pacific, 1944-45

Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page

 

The B-24's did well, now pull a rabbit out of your hat and give the TBD Devastator's victorys.

 

LOL Ill keep looking!! But I don't think Ill find any. Unless you are into "What If?'s LOL

 

"On the second day of the Battle of the Coral Sea, Lt. "Swede" Vejtasa was leading 4 of the 8 Douglas SBDs assigned anti-torpedo patrol duty. He suddenly found himself alone and under attack by 8 Mitsubishi Zeros. A wild dogfight ensued, with no quarter given by either side. Remembering lessons his skipper had emphasized, "Swede" defended himself. Turning into every attack, he was able to increase the angle of deflection for the enemy fighters and maneuver into position to use his own forward-firing .30 caliber guns. He downed three Zeros that day; but when the dogfight was over, only half of the SBDs returned to the USS Yorktown."

and this,


Dauntless "Air to Air" Kills

SBD Dauntless Units of World War 2 - Google Book Search

 

I'm not. These aircraft generally operated alone on maritime patrol missions well ahead of US forces. This puts them in Japanese territory by themselves alot of the time.

As for their score, given the heavy defensive armament and flimsyness of most Japanese aircraft I can see them fending off a herd of Zeros while flying 10 feet off the water. The later PB4Y had two upper turrets with twin .50 machineguns, twin .50 waist machineguns and a twin .50 power turret fore and aft. They were also heavily armored, lacked superchargers and were, if anything, less vulnerable than the B-24 itself.

 

This extract tends to back up T.A. Gardners point, the B32 was similar to the B24/PB4Y although the Dominators were at altitude.

On 18 August, four Dominators were tasked with photographing many of the targets covered on the previous day; however, mechanical problems caused two to be pulled from the flight. Over Japan, a formation of 14 A6M Zeroand three N1K2 J Shiden-Kai fighters (as is often the case, Shiden-Kai is described as Ki 44 Tojo, but it may be misunderstanding of the crews) attacked the remaining two U.S. aircraft. Saburo Sakai, a Japanese ace, said later there was concern that the Dominators were attacking. Another Japanese ace, Sadamu Komachi, stated in a 1978 Japanese magazine article that the fighter pilots could not bear to see American bombers flying serenely over a devastated Tokyo. The B-32 Dominator Hobo Queen II (s/n 42-108532) was flying at 20,000 feet when the Japanese fighters took off and received no significant damage. Hobo Queen II claimed two Zeros destroyed in the action as well as a probable Shiden-Kai. The other Dominator was flying 10,000 feet below Hobo Queen II when the fighters took off. The fighters heavily damaged that Dominator and inflicted serious injuries on two crew members. Photographer Staff Sergeant Joseph Lacharite was seriously wounded in the legs (his recovery would require several years). Sergeant Anthony Marchione, a photographer's assistant, helped Lacharite and then was fatally wounded himself. Despite the damage it received, the Dominator was able to return to Okinawa. Marchione was the last American to die in air combat in World War II

Steve

 

At the time I posted the comment I wasn't aware of how many missions were flown by the PB4Y Liberator/Privateer. That was the reason for my surprise. Not about the aircraft itself.

 

In the Pacific the PB4Y, particularly the Privateer version was extensively used in this mission. The PB4Y is also one of the first aircraft specifically designed to accomidate ESM equipment and had a rather extensive suite of radar and radio detection equipment aboard for the purpose. Some early missions of this type included making a radar coverage map of Attu and Kiska Islands when the Japanese occupied them.
These were made to all US bombers to approach from directions of minimal coverage to reduce Japanese response times (Operation Beaver). VP-104 began flying out of Henderson Field in mid 1943 to map Japanese radar coverage in the Solomons and Bismark island chains. There they operated mostly at night and regularly had Japanese nightfighters try to intercept them.
Worse yet, many of these missions were run with the intentional use of the PB4Y as "live bait" to try and get Japanese radar, particularly airborne nightfighter radar, signals and record them.
By January 1944 PB4Y were flying into the Marshall Island group to get ELINT there.
This was followed by missions in the Philippines. After that, units like VBP-106 were flying 16+ hour missions off Iwo Jima and Okinawa for ELINT and as an early version of today's AWACs aircraft providing radar coverage as well as radio relay between ships and other aircraft.
Some were equipped late in the war for anti-shipping strike carrying the BAT guided missile. This was a US developed ASM that was to be used along the lines of the German Hs 293. The BAT was television guided rather than visually like the German missile. I know that at least a few of these weapons were successfully used on merchant ships before the war ended.

 

Im hoping that R.Leonard will take notice of this thread . He has posted quite a bit more info on the subject. I have quoted some of it here.

 

My father flew SBD's off the Enterprise during the first year of the war and claimed it was quite agile for a dive bomber. Several of his acquaintances in the Navy had confirmed aerial kills in the SBD, and on at least one occasion SBD's were used as emergency CAP fighters for US carriers.

The TBF Avenger also had several confirmed aerial kills to it's credit and more than held their own against enemy fighters and scouts at the Philippine Sea debacle.

 

From post #3

USN/USMC confirmed victories for non-fighter aircraft (not including the SBD's 138) - I suspect that most of these were also credited to gunners:

PB4Y Liberator/Privateer - 306
TBF/TBM Avenger - 98
SB2C/SBW Helldiver - 43
PV Ventura - 20
PBM Mariner - 16
PBY Catalina - 9
PB2Y Coronado - 8
TBD Devastator - 6
SB2U Vindicator - 6