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Scoped M1

Discussion in 'The Guns Galore Section' started by some guy phpbb3, Jul 3, 2004.

  1. some guy phpbb3

    some guy phpbb3 New Member

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    all this talk about how the M1 was so great got me thinking... why didn't anybody ever put a scope on the thing? was it just not powerful enough for longer range?
     
  2. Skua

    Skua New Member

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    Two sniper versions of the M1 were produced from 1944, the M1C and the M1D. I don´t know any details, but perhaps someone else can provide us with some.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. dave phpbb3

    dave phpbb3 New Member

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    i thught i didnt hve enought range 5500 yards aint alot
     
  4. liang

    liang New Member

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    Well, the role of "sniper"rifle was already taken by the 1903 Springfield. The M1 was rendered as a regular rifle, although I am sure some soldiers have purchased or obtained their own scope and mount it on their M1s. But there is no argument that in general the rigid bolt-action rifles are more accurate than the gas or piston action semi-automatic rifles in long distance sniping.
     
  5. GP

    GP New Member

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    They are not necessarily more accurate, but the bolt action doesn't affect the sights as much as semi/automatic weapons. So affecting the scope and not the weapon.
     
  6. liang

    liang New Member

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    I don't think it has anything to do with the scope. My undestanding was that the less moving parts you have in a rifle, the more accurate you will be. The rigid structure of the bolt-action rifle offers a more stable firing platform when compared to the gas or piston operated weapons. Maybe some of the firearms experts in this forum can clarify this.
     
  7. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    I'm not an expert but I think that sudden drop in gas pressure (= bullet passes gasport, gas goes gasport and to piston and reloading starts) will decrease accuracy.

    By the way, most successful sniper, Simo Häyhä, didnt use scoped rifle. Apparently that was his key to success, he could lay lower on the ground with open sights. With scope sniper must get higher and that makes him more apparent target to enemy. Simo Häyhä managed to get over 500 kills in less than 100 days.
     
  8. GP

    GP New Member

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    When you fire a weapon you zero it first, this means that where you point it the bullet goes. If as you say the loss in gas pressure looses accuracy then this will be compensated for in the zeroing process. The recoil in a semi/automatic weapon is much more violent than in a bolt action weapon ( i.e. a person using a bolt is more gentle than exhaust gasses). with a sniping sight the violent recoil can affect the sighting, bearing in mind that with the Enfield, the recoil can break a shoulder if not held correctly. I doubt if a person cocking a bolt action can. IMHO
     
  9. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    I've zeroed my assault rifle (and cannon also) many times, I know zeroing, thank you very much. My point was this:
    In normal bolt action rifle, gas pressure drops steadily as bullet goes thorough the barrel but in gas action rifle it first drops steadily and then suddenly drops (as bullet goes past that gasport). This sudden drop might cause some inaccuracy as gas doesnt act steadily as it used to do before that gasport. Damn, its hard to express your opinion in foreign language... :(
     
  10. GP

    GP New Member

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    Your command of English is very good and I understand what you are saying, but the speed of the bullet leaving the barrel will always be the same therefore after being zeroed the round should always land in the same spot, therefore, the accuracy is not effected by the sudden drop in pressure as that sudden drop always occurs at the same time so the velocity of the round is the same, within limits. On the ranges I have fired 1000's of rounds and up to several hundred at a time. my grouping is about 4 inches or 10 cm at 110yds/100m. although this is not very good it is consistent.

    Please don't think you haven't expressed yourself well as your grasp of my language is far better than I could (and most other people on this board) could ever hope to speak a 2nd language.
     
  11. GP

    GP New Member

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    I took this from the site listed.

    Important mechanical considerations include the material the tubes themselves are made of, the construction of the tubes (single or multiple piece), the way the lenses and reticules are mounted and retained in place, the accuracy and repeatability of the windage and elevation adjustment mechanisms, how well the tube is sealed against the elements, the ability of all components to withstand recoil and hard knocks, and the external finish of the sight.

    http://www.ask.co.uk/ix.asp?q=effect+of ... htm&adurl=
     
  12. GP

    GP New Member

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    As you can see the barrett is a semiautomatic rifle, which has most of the recoil absorbed so it can be used as a sniping rifle.

    Taken from:


    http://www.ask.co.uk/ix.asp?q=effect+of ... htm&adurl=



    The Barrett Model 82A1 rifle gained worldwide popularity after pioneering the return of shoulder fired big-bore rifles for shooting enthusiasts. As a result of its unique operating cycle, the M82A1 easily fires the largest commercially available cartridge in the world, the .50 caliber. Yet, the Barrett M82A1 develops the lowest recoil force of any comparable rifle.

    The M82A1 operates on the short-recoil principle. Founder Ronnie Barrett adapted this operating principle to a shoulder fired rifle. The recoiling barrel and bolt assembly acting against innovative spring and buffer assemblies replace the sharp recoil impact with a longer-acting lower recoil force. To further reduce the recoil load, the M82A1 is fitted with a dual chamber muzzle brake. The muzzle brake redirects high velocity gun gas to lower recoil by almost 70%. The net effect is a rifle with the felt recoil of a 12-gauge shotgun.

    With these time-proven methods and innovative designs, the Barrett M82A1 offers safety, rugged durability, and reliability to the big-bore enthusiast.
     
  13. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    Thank you GP for those links but unfortunatelly that latter doesnt work at the moment :( Former link is partly familiar to me, I've visited Chuck Hawks homepage often. Here's shorter link to that article.
    And here to whole page.

    And thank you for those kind words about my english :oops:

    Few words about recoil (I should have noticed this earlier).

    AFAIK, recoil force felt by shooter depends on many things, namely bullet weight, barrel lenght, powder, etc and weight of gun. I've got my experience from latter, shooting same bullet from guns weighting around 4kg and 9kg, latter had milder recoil (althought neither was hard-kicking gun, ammo was 7.62x39 ).
    And automatic guns tend to be heavier than single shot or bolt action guns using same ammunition. Therefore they tend to kick less.
    Its true that automatic guns tend to "slam" those moving parts much more violently than human, so that part of sights going out of calibration (dont remember right term for that now).

    And back to the barrel, gas pressure, bullet etc.
    IMHO, when bullet goes past that gasport, gas goes more turbulent and that might affect bullet a bit. Bullet might come out of barrel in not optimal way (again, missing proper words :( ). And as you know, 0.001" error in muzzle can cause 1" error in target.

    Now I'm going to visit my in-laws for week, maybe I learn and remember those missing words :(

    Edit: Fixing those links.
     
  14. GP

    GP New Member

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    The thing about the loss of gasses is negligible as the gas port remains in the same place and allows the same amount of gas through each shot, therefore the forces acting on the bullet are constant, hence when zeroed the weapon is as accurate for the first round as the last (again within limits). Again as for your English the word your looking for is trajectory. (the flight path of a projectile). Although I don't like correcting non-native English speakers, who speak so well, I am only increasing your vocabulary. (well that is my defence here).
     
  15. liang

    liang New Member

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    Darn, I never knew there are so many factors influencing the ballistics of a rifle bullet. Should have paid more attention in physics class. You guys really know your guns.
     
  16. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    I always thought that the loss of accuracy in gas-action rifles came into force on the second shot - if you fired again quickly. All those moving parts in the rifle throw your aim off just that little bit...
    Although with bolt action rifles you cannot get a second shot off so quick.
     
  17. GP

    GP New Member

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    Using a bolt action weapon you have to disturb the hold of the weapon therefore disturbing the position.

    There are four marksmanship principle (as taught by the British military)

    Now lets see if I can remember them.

    !. The position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon.

    2. The weapon should point naturally at the target, without any undue effort.

    3. Sight alignment/aiming must be correct.

    4. The shot must be released and followed through without disturbing the position.

    Taking point 1. when you hold the weapon it should be comfortable and you must grip the weapon so that you can control the recoil, not prevent it but control it.

    Point 2. The weapon should point at the target no tyou having to pull it on to the target. You take aim then close your eyes and lower the barrel raise it again and open and you should be aiming at the same point.

    Point the 3. the eye rear sight fore sight and target must be in a straight line also the distance betweet eye and rear sight the correct distance, the focus of the sights must also be correct.

    Point 4. the trigger must be squeezed not snatched the barrel must be allowed to move under control of the firer with the recoil but must come to rest back on target without move the position.

    If any zeroed weapon is fired in this way, every shot <b><u>will</b></u> hit the target.
     
  18. GP

    GP New Member

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    Caliber: 5.56 NATO (.223rem)
    Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
    Overall length: 780 mm (709 mm in Carbine variant)
    Barrel length: 518 mm (442 mm in Carbine variant)
    Weight: 4.13 kg (with SUSAT optical sight and no magazine); 5 kg with SUSAT and loaded with magazine with 30 rounds of ammunition
    Magazine capacity: 30 rounds
    Rate of fire: 650 rounds per minute
    Effective range: about 500 meters (with SUSAT sights)

    The rifle 5.56 has a muzzle velocity of about 580 m/s with a barrel of about half a metre the bullet is well on it's way to the target before the weapon moves to any great extent. therefore if the weapon is help proerly then every shot will be accurate. In this case the inaccuracy is with the human factor and not the weapon. IMHO
     
  19. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    Sorry, wasn't clear...
    Gas-operated, you can get off a second shot quick, but if you do do it quick, chances are it will be a little out.
    Bolt action you can't get another shot off quick, as you must re-aim pretty much from scratch.
     
  20. GP

    GP New Member

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    If you hold a gas operated weapon correctly then it will return quickly to the aiming position. A correctly held weapon should be tight enough to fire 2 or 3 shots fairly accurately within a second or 2. I personally have fired 5 shots within a few seconds and achieved a grouping of 4 inches (not a marksman but will kill).

    If a weapon is correctly zeroed <b><u>it is</b></u> accurate.

    There is a big difference between an accurate weapon and a sniping weapon.

    Any weapon can be fitted with an iron sight (the normal circle and foresight type) and an optical sight. Snipers do not use iron sights to snipe with, they use optical sights. This is where the bolt action or gas operated issue becomes relevant.

    A sniper does not normally fire several shots from the same position, unless there are multiple targets but normally will disturb the position so an automatic or semiautomatic weapon is not needed. The Barrett is semiautomatic but it's recoil is greatly reduce to enable it to be used as a sniping weapon.
     

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