Senate vote, Pearl Harbor, FDR, Kimmel, Short & Marshall

"That Kimmel did not receive all information is irrelevant to the matter'.

It is very relevent to the matter. Kimmel should have been sent all info
reguarding, the base he was trying to protect, Pearl Harbor.

My understanding is that some info was not given, because of fear that
our code breaking would be exposed. I don't remember where I read this.

So, here is some more info on Kimmel & Short not getting decoded messages:

During a 1944 naval inquiry, Captain Laurance Safford, the leading cryptologist responsible for decoding intercepted Japanese messages, courageously testified on what he and his office knew:

On December 1, we had definite information from three independent sources that Japan was going to attack Britain and the United States ...
On December 4, 1941, we received definite information from two more independent sources that Japan would attack the United States and Britain, but would maintain peace with Russia. At 9:00 p.m. (Washington time), December 6, 1941, we received positive information that Japan would declare war against the United States, at a time to be specified thereafter. This information was positive and unmistakable and was made available to Military [US Army] Intelligence at this same time. Finally at 10:15 a.m. (Washington time), December 7, 1941 [about 5:00 a.m. Hawaii time], we received positive information ... that the Japanese declaration of war would be presented to the Secretary of State at 1:00 p.m. (Washington time) that date.
​

All decoded messages, Safford explained, were promptly passed on to the President and other key civilian and military personnel. Yet both Kimmel and Short were kept in the dark about the most pertinent of these messages. The responsibility for failing to pass along this critically important information to the Hawaii commanders, Beach writes, belonged to Admiral Harold Stack, General George Marshall, and Vice Admiral Richmond Turner.

Here is my source: Institute for Historical Review

Scapegoats -- A Defense of Kimmel and Short at Pearl Harbor (review)

 

I would like to know what about "Magic" have I said that is not intelligent.
What you are really doing here is more name calling....I'm not intelligent,
I guess I must be dumb....these seems to be your message.

 

That's your opinion but it seems a rather uninformed one. For one thing I suspect you don't have any idea of the sheer volume of paper you just suggested get dumped on the Admiral's desk. For another "need to know" is determined by factors other than local "nice to have". Then there's the question of whether or not this additional info could reasonably be expected to change any of his actions.

 

DF-

If copies of ALL the intercepted, decoded, and translated MAGIC messages were dumped on Kimmel's desk, exactly what words, in which message, would have caused him to place the Pacific Fleet on alert in time for the attack on the morning of 7 December?

 

Kimmel should have been given this info:

Japanese government had divided Pearl Harbor into five areas and was seeking minute berthing information as to the berthing of ships of the fleet in those areas, which was vitally significant.

If your read my past posts you will see it.

 

Question/comment -

Regardless of what type of warning message Kimmel was supposed to get; didnt the events of the prior couple of weeks dictate that both the army and navy impliment some type of elevated alert for all days/nights?

Even if they navy was short of PBY's, theres nothing stopping them from using subs and other small ships as early warning pickets. The ships in harbor could have also been at a higher state of readiness, and that could have limited some of the damage they received. Same with the army. Why couldnt they disperse more of their fighters? Not all, but more than a few.

 

Yes, I agree they should have done things, like "pickets" and be in a "been at a higher state of readiness".

I understand kimmel and Short made mistakes. But so did people in
Washington DC. Those poeple suffered little or no conquense, as a result. That's why over the years, historians have tended to place less blame on Kimmel and Short and more on Washington.

 

Edward Beach & other historians believe that at a secret, late-night White House meeting on the evening before the Pearl Harbor attack, President Roosevelt was informed of the most recently intercepted Japanese communication. A Navy officer who was present later testified that upon reading it, Roosevelt exclaimed "This means war!" Beach contends that it was fear of exposing "Magic" that explains Roosevelt's failure to immediately alert Kimmel, Short and other appropriate officials, and even to deny that this late-night White House meeting ever took place.

Just one hour and seven minutes before Japanese bombs began falling on Pearl Harbor, an important telegram by General Marshall was dispatched to General Short in Hawaii. It read:

japanese are presenting at one pm eastern standard time today what amounts to an ultimatum also they are under orders to destroy their code machine immediately stop just what significance the hour set may have we do not know but be on alert accordingly stop inform naval authorities of this communication marshall
​

Marshall could have used a trans-Pacific telephone to make sure that Hawaii learned instantly of this momentous news, but this was not done. Instead, this message was sent by regular commercial radio telegraph, and was not received by Short and Kimmel until after the Japanese attack.

Source: Scapegoats: A Defense of Kimmel and Short at Pearl Harbor, by Edward L. Beach.

You all don't think Marshall, should have gotten on the horn with Short?
I do. This may have made a big difference. Ammo lockers all open, planes
in the air, ships boilers started and maybe even the ships moving.

 

Read the link I proved on page one of this thread. If you do, you will see the message is not an ultimatum, or even a severing of diplomatic relations.

 

Marshall could have used a trans-Pacific telephone to make sure that Hawaii learned instantly of this momentous news

I still don't have anyones silly excuse will Marshall, just didn't make a phone call.

 

The cable was telegraph, not telephone, and privately owned by two companies, the Western Union owned the land connection to San Fran., and the Pacific Transocean Company owned the cable from San Fran. to Hawaii. Since we were NOT at war these cables remained in private hands and the government had to get in line just like any other customer.

 

DF, here is a URL to the Trans Pacific Cable of the Teddy Roosevelt era:

Goto:

History of the Atlantic Cable & Submarine Telegraphy - Commercial Pacific Cable Company

It was still in operation in 1941, but NO telePHONE cables had been laid.

 

For the telegraph cables to Hawaii, didn't the US Govt have the right to prioritize messages if it did designate it "urgent" or whatever classification? And someone blundered and sent the messages as a "non priority normal" classification?