Senate vote, Pearl Harbor, FDR, Kimmel, Short & Marshall

Reviews of same at that, apparently.

So the main questions still have not been answered though there continue to be claims that this, that, or the other circumstances would have had Kimmel and Short standing at the ready, in the middle of Luke Field, .50 cal M2's in hand, surrounded by boxes of ammo, at 0745, Sunday, 7 December 1941.

Who in the US government, or the US Navy, or the US Army, knew the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor? Names and your proof, please.

When did this individual or these individuals in the US government, or the US Navy, or the US Army, know the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor? Dates and your proof, please.

How did this individual or these individuals in the US government, or the US Navy, or the US Army, find out the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor? Methods and your proof, please.

Why did this individual or these individuals in the US government, or the US Navy, or the US Army, after finding out the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor do nothing? Reasons and your proof, please.

What was in the message popularly referred to as the "Bomb Plot Message," intercepted in late September 1941, deciphered and translate by early October 1941, and making the rounds at the Navy Department shortly thereafter, that would have had Kimmel go into high gear two months later, in December? (Yes, I noticed you earlier dodged this one, too.)

What, and you must be specific, naming items, naming events, naming individuals and their deeds or misdeeds and the appropriate time frames and the verifiable witnesses (not some third party's suppositions), what, pray tell specifically identifies Pearl Harbor as a target for attack at the outbreak of the war, when was this information available, who had it, and what did they do with it?

Another cloud of "woulda" "shoulda" and "coulda" doesn't count.

Snippets from book reviews doesn't count.

Pasta (hey, I like that, Larry) from any number of conspiracy sites doesn't count, nor fragments from books you haven't read.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but every time you bring up another astounding "fact" relating to the Great Pearl Harbor Cabal that it is quickly and pointedly shredded by reality.

Wishing is not history.

 

I don't view this as going into battle. This is a discussion forum, I want to
have discussions with people, not argue or battle with them. The idea that this is discussion forum, seem lost on you OP. I don't feel like documenting every single little bit of all my posts. I want to enjoy this
activity, not battle with no-it-all types, like you and some of your buddies.

If you feel my post are boring, or too repetitive, ignore them. I'm done on this thread because it's no longer enjoyable. I have nothing to prove to
you or anyone else, on this forum.

 

But I have never posted that I believe there was a conspriacy. I posted this: Ambassador Grew sent Pearl Harbor attack warning, on Pearl Harbor Day, just to generate a little discussion. I have said, I feel there were a lot of people looking to cover, there rear ends, and in a
big way, after the disaster. But no conspriacy, or foreknowledge on the
part of FDR or his admin. So, would you cut me a break.

I'm working on a post about some of the issues, faced by the Roosevelt
admin. Like his campaign promises, then getting worse and worse info
on the situation in Poland (people being starved), and not know how he could help. He faced a very difficult foreign policy decisions, decisions
that would be debated for decades to come, and FDR knew all that.


Oh, and there is nothing wrong with my research. I have been reading
about WW2, for many yrs.

 

I know the Grew warning didn't amount to much, it was a Pearl Harbor Day
post.

"What are you using for sources for the FDR post"?

Why do you have some sources for me? Send me the links, I'm all ears,
eyes and typing fingers

 

There may be nothing wrong with your "reading" habits or your "research", to your mind. Your conclusions are suspect is what the rest of us feel. The trotting out the Grew memo is an example of same.

One thing that should be kept in mind here about the Grew "warning" about Pearl. The Fleet wouldn’t be stationed AT Pearl until about three months (May 7th 1940) after the memo was sent to D.C. relaying a "rumor" he had heard at a cocktail party at the Peruvian Embassy by way of an embassy cook or something. Not a "major red flag" here.

Goto:

The Ambassador in Japan (Grew) to the Secretary of State Warning of an Attack on Pearl Harbor, 27 January 1941

This was not only MONTHS before the Fleet was moved to Hawaii, it was nearly a full year before the Japanese actually launched the raid. From late January to early December.

This is a "nothing" tip/rumor, and one of many in 1941, even Grew dismissed it at the time.

 

>>Disclaimer: This has nothing to do with present day politics, but rather to point out to those who seem to think that a president is overreaching his authority to remove a commander in the field that a president not only can do so, but oftentimes will, and for reasons that are satisfactory to the president alone. Current political discussion will not be entertained.<<

Headline in this morning’s Richmond Times-Dispatch: “Obama Ponders Firing McChrystal.” Can it be that a president might consider firing one of his military commanders? Some would apparently be shocked that a president might exercise, much less contemplate, such authority. I’d also note that McCrystal’s predecessor was also sacked by this current president. Unlike McCrystal’s situation where he, perhaps, spoke out of turn, his predecessor, General McKiernan, was sacked due to a lack of confidence in his command, a more typical reasoning for removal of a commander.

 

Ummm brndirt1,

May 7th, 1940, is before January 27, 1941, not after.

This has been bugging me for some time, I though maybe I had missed something in your post #80 in the Ambassador Grew thread.http://www.ww2f.com/pearl-harbor/37097-ambassador-grew-sent-pearl-harbor-attack-warning-4.html

I thought maybe HQ, had moved, but the Fleet was not officially stationed at Pearl yet. However, your last post has cleared that up for me.

 

Apparently Takeo Yoshikawa heard it. This was in another thread: HISTORICAL NOTES: Remember Pearl Harbor - TIME

"Still he did not know of the attack until he heard the first bombs fall at 0755 hours on the morning of the 7th. "I thought it probably a maneuver, but rose and switched on the shortwave" to get the 8 o'clock news from Radio Tokyo. Twice during the weather forecast, the announcer reported "East wind, rain."

He confirms that a message was sent at the outbreak of hostilities. His inference is that it was "East wind, rain". It would certainly support your hypothesis that this message indicates an impending break in relations was happening, real time. This required the activation message be inserted into messages to embassies, etc.
A question that I would like to have an answer to is, "where were the skip zones for Radio Tokyo that day?" I don't know the freq for Radio Tokyo in Dec 1941. Presumably it's HF. Actually more questions arise. Was Radio Tokyo continuosly transmitting the message from say 0500 Hawaii Time until say 1100? Or was it only one time 0800 transmission?
Could this be the source for Safford's insistence, that there was an activation message? It is not in the time DTZ sequence for Msg 7001. However, a Radio Tokyo in the clear broadcast is conceivable as a source of confusion.
I know. I'll be dismissed. They are valid questions in my mind though.

 

IMHO, it is unlikely whatever Yoshikawa heard was the source for Safford claim. Stafford, at first, claimed not to have remembered anything about seeing the "Winds Execute" message. Later, he changed his story and insisted it was in a message sent on December 4th. The Time article says that it was on the 7th, after the bombs were already exploding, that Yoshikawa heard it.

Regardless, for the US, the message had lost its meaning at 0748 when the Japanese commenced their attack on Oahu.

 

I agree that it is is unlikely that Commander Safford heard the message. What I find interesting, is that Ens(?) Yoshikawa would mention the Winds message. He's remembering something which is purported not to have existed by American sources. However, he was mentioning something which is indicated as existing in Japanese sources. Presumably, his reputation was not at stake in any of this.

 

nevarinemex,

It is not just American sources, no Japanese authority has officially admitted to sending "east wind, rain." The only Winds message they officially acknowledge sending is "west wind, clear."

 

Japanese authorities denied to MacArthur's interviewers that they ever contemplated an East wind, rain message. At least that is according to Roberta Wohlsetter. And OP provides the circular dispatches, #2353 and #2354 which were intercepted and indeed serve as proof of their existence in November 1941.
It tends to impeach the Japanese sources, if I understand this correctly. I see no nefarious conspiracy, if indeed Yoshikawa did hear what he says he heard. It seems to line up neatly with #2353 and #2354.
This certainly doesn't offer any validation to the loons who accuse Naval staff of withholding information from Kimmel, proof that Nagumo was banging away on the transmitting key during transit or that FDR was luring the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor. Please see: Asia Sentinel - The Tamogami Affair
What it does do is bring me back into revisiting history again. Maybe I can enjoy learning and sharing more here.

 

Sir,
MAGIC provided indications of the time, place, reason, and deceit plan to cover the Pearl Harbor attack. How does this equate to a dead end?
Regards,
Tom Kimmel

 

Takao,
MAGIC provided indications of the time, place, reason, and deceit plan to cover the attack. How is this irrelevant?
Regards,
Tom Kimmel