Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by DogFather, Jun 11, 2010.
Please don't spam us, Mr. Kimmel. Post your evidence and we'll look at it.
Kimmel never asked for "all" MAGIC. Indeed, he did not know about MAGIC until 1944, but he did ask in writing for all information that bore upon his disposition in Hawaii. CNO Stark on four occasions assured Kimmel he would be kept informed, and he wasn't.
Specifically, which MAGIC messages were decoded prior to the attack that indicate an attack on Pearl Harbor?
You don't suppose the answer there would be NONE, do you OP?
If we hadn't done this before, I would be mildly interested in the response.
350 some-odd pages on "Winds" messages.
Haynok and Mowrie. Good stuff.
Thank you for your interest. Indications from MAGIC as to the place of the Pearl Harbor attack are found at 12PHA254-270. If you would like the page numbers for indications from MAGIC of the time, reason, and deceit plan for the Pearl Harbor attack, I would be most pleased to provide them.
The Yoshikawa intell? Sorry, that's not an indication of Pearl being a target. As Hawaii was the main base of the US Fleet it's not surprising Japan was interested in it.
I had hoped for something that hadn't been debunked years ago.
I suppose the advice to " do not hold your breath" isn't needed?
Tom, what evidence is there that ADM Kimmel or GEN Short would have done anything diffrent had they had this information? Guard against sabatoge? After all, ADM Kimmel knew that US intelligence had lost the Japanese carriers and did little with the information to prepare for possible attack.
I read those messages in 1965, when I was fourteen. Even then I could tell there was no smoking gun.
Thank you for your note and for your interest.
My website contains a wealth of information on the subject. Please start there and we can talk further, or better yet invite me to speak to a group of your choice.
The Story Within The Pearl Harbor Story
You didn't answer my question.
I suppose when Richard Dawkins asks Ken Ham to speak at one of his meetings. . .
Yes, he did OpanaPointer,
It is in within his website, specifically http://www.pearlharbor911attacks.com/docs/Kimmel_Pages_from_AFIO_INTEL_WINTERSPRG2009.pdf
That is his proof, an unknown FBI document that may or may not exist.
The basis for this is a conversation between Col. John T. Bissell and G. C. Burton concerning
Except "Niitakayama nobore 1208" is a code phrase, not a code word. Also, it went out on December 2, 1941, and I don't think the Japanese were still broadcasting that on December 5th. And if the American's had intercepted the code phrase, 1208, tells one exactly when the attack will occur, and not the unknown quantity, "Saturday or Sunday." Something in this FBI memo quoted by Mr. Kimmel does not add up.
Also, note that in this passage
Code word has now become code words. Also, noteworthy is that this information was SENT to the Hawaiian Islands.
So according to this, Hawaii knew the attack was coming and still dropped the ball. Rather than absolving Admiral Kimmel, as Tom Kimmel obviously intends, it does seem to be damning him. Especially, if true, that Hawaii actually was informed of the impending attack on December 5th, 1941.
The significance of "Niitakayama nobore 1208" first came to the US attention when we heard the phrase in 1944 from a captured yeoman. The message itself was found in the backlog of intercepts and decoded in 1945, IIRC. As Takao points out, it's just a phrase, and was BROADCAST FROM JAPAN. It was the "go signal" for all the attacks, not just Pearl Harbor.
Fail, Mr. Kimmel. You could do your illustrious ancestor more honor by telling the truth.
Thank you for your note, and for your opinion. Here's Halsey's for your consideration:
Fleet Admiral William F. Halsey, Kimmel’s senior air officer, described what MAGIC indicated when he wrote that,
Had we known of Japan’s minute and continued interest in the exact location and movement of our ships in Pearl Harbor, as indicated in the “Magic Messages,” it is only logical that we would have concentrated our thought on meeting the practical certainty of an attack on Pearl Harbor. I am sure I would have protested the movement of my Task Force to Wake Island in late November and early December. I am also sure no protest would have been necessary; because if Kimmel had possessed this intelligence, he would not have ordered that movement. (See Fleet Admiral William F. Halsey’s foreword to Admiral Robert A. Theobald, The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor, Devin-Adair, 1954, pp vii, viii. )
So, Bill indulges in some 20-20 hindsight? I'm very impressed with him as a leader, but his psychic abilities have been poorly documented.
Thank you for your note. Not sure what you mean here, but if it's truth you want, how about some from Admiral Nimitz:
“[Secretary of the Navy] Frank Knox was wrong in blaming Kimmel. . .
“Admiral Kimmel had been given no information which would justify interrupting a very urgent training schedule.”
Nimitz, E. B. Potter, p.13
SEAPOWER, Nimitz/Potter, 1960, p.650
PS--How do you know what Bissell had in mind?
Thank you for your note. Justice Roberts indeed thought the "reliably reported" information he received from the FBI's secret source (Bissell) proved that Hawaii "dropped the ball." That's why he tried to use the information against Kimmel and Short, but when he found out that the ball had actually been dropped in Washington, he dropped the ball by not further investigating the matter, and five years later was forced to lie about it, or be made to look a fool before the JCC. This was not made public until 2002, and not explained until 2008 in my article.