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Should Hitler have accepted Soviet peace offers in 1942 and 1943

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe' started by scipio, Feb 5, 2012.

  1. scipio

    scipio Member

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    I was rather surprised to read that Stalin had his representative in Stockholm offer separate peace negotiations in December 1942 and again in summer 1943 culminating in definite proposal in September 1943.

    Source is claimed as Goebbels Tagebucher 1942-43 p 392 and Zwischen London und Moskau p 265.

    The basic offer from Russia was restoration of 1914 borders and economic ties.

    It is beleived that Stalin was concerned that the West was waiting in the wings for Russia and Germany to exhaust each other and then to step in scoop up the spoils.

    Hitler apparently turned down the offers flat - told Goebbels he was only prepared to negotiated after an emphatic victory.
     
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  2. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    There were initiatives on the both sides. Shortly before the famous Nazi »Old Combatants« speech in the Münchener Bürgerbraukeller Ribbentrop has suggested Führer to approach Stalin through the Soviet embassy in Stockholm but he dismissed the idea by telling him: »a moment of weakness is not the right time for dealing with an enemy. « But, »weakness« was severe: the delay in the Fall Blau, retreat from Alamein and the beginning of operation Torch. And yet, during the speech he said that the time was of no importance.

    Führer understood that the outlook was rather grim but he also knew: either his or Stalin's head was to roll. The truce was in Stalin's favour: with every day he was stronger whilst with borders of 1941 Berlin would have been much closer to the peril from the East.
     
  3. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know,there were never Soviet peace proposals .
     
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  4. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member Patron  

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    As Far As I know the peace proposals on both sides were generated at a much lower (and deniable) level within each government. Had Hitler been able to get eastern Poland, the Baltics and Finland's and Rumania's original borders in exchange for peace, he should have taken it and ran.

    Certainly he would judge Stalin by his standards and expect to be attacked at any time, but I suspect Stalin would hold off until at least after the Allies crossed the Rhine and were driving on Berlin before he would swoop in 'to protect the people of the Baltics and Poland' So long as hitler could keep the Allies out of Germany, Russia would bide its time in my opinion.
     
  5. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Indeed, there is no reliable evidence except assertions by Reichsmarschall Göring and Reichsminister Ribbentrop. There were rumors involving Bulgarian embassador in Moscow, Ivan Stamenov.

    It is normal that even countries in war have some kind of diplomatic relationships. However, the idea behind is quite interesting and I also consider Stalin exceptionally inteligent and capable leader who wouldn't mind using any meassures to achieve his main objective: to save Russia and to save the USSR.
     
  6. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The whole story has been invented after the war by Peter Kleist (who could not be accused of being hostile to the third reich),who claimed that a certain Edgar Klauss had some conversations with Soviet intermediaries,who had told Klauss that certain persons in Moscow were not hostile to a separate German-Soviet peace .The problem is that Klauss died shortly after the war,and that we only have the word of Kleist for the whole story .
    For me,the word of some one who was defending the Third Reich in writings after the war,is not enough .
     
  7. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    That's exactly my opinion too. I have read about this matter a while ago from some quite serious article. I will try to find it somewhere in my library and get back with more data on this subject.

    There is another source though; Göbbels's diary that indicates preparedness of the 3rd Reich for the separate peace with the USSR. Allegedly, Göbbels said to Hitler that they must come to an arrangement with one side or the other. Hitler replied that he would prefer negotiations with Stalin!
     
  8. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The whole story was published a few years after the war by Kleist (after all,he had to make a living,and,spy stories are selling very good) in Die Zeit (if my memory is still working),later it has been debunked by the same Zeit .
    Some where,in the chaos of my library,I have a copy of the article .
     
  9. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    We both may dig something under the heap of papers. ;)

    As far as I can remember my source was an article in English by some Polish historian.
     
  10. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    I recall we discussed about this a couple of years back. For instance Ribbentrop had contacts through Stockholm to the Soviets, and before Kursk 1943 ( Zitadelle ) it seems the Soviets might have had some contacts towards the Germans, but after Zitadelle Stalin never made another proposal of peace negotiations. And when it comes to Hitler, he never accepted any peace negotiations with the Soviets.
     
  11. efestos

    efestos Member

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    I guess this was the thread: In this forum

    Von Thoma (POW, interned at Trent Park ) talked with others generals about the posibility of a deal with Stalin before Stalingrad... And the british intelligence recorded him.




     
  12. scipio

    scipio Member

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    Thanks for the links - I did try to check if the topic had been raised before but failed to see the thread which was pointed out by efestos.

    I just wondered if anyone had the original sources which I referred to in my first post.


    Seems to me that an offer would be typical of Stalin. Throughout he was concerned that the West was playing a double game of using the Fascists to wear down Russia and then come in at
    the last minute and destroy the Russian Revolution. I am sure it was not lost on him that Churchill was the Minister behind the British Army efforts in Archangel in 1919/20.

    A Peace with Germany which left Russia at the 1914 border and able to recuperate while the US/British and Germans destroyed each other would leave him in an excellent position to pick up the pieces.
     
  13. Victor Gomez

    Victor Gomez Ace

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    It may be fun to try to guess what could have happened.....but with hind sight Germany under Hitler was not known in time for keeping agreements......and you can carry that thought to what he told his own people that did not expect to go to war when Hitler first became their leader.....an agreement with Nazi Germany was many times a pipe dream, even for Germans who were hoping to get away from war after WWI.
     
  14. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I am glad that you have started this interesting thread because this subject still lacks proper answers.

    What if that was all Stalin's deception? What are the benefits?

    It should be noted first, that during the period under consideration Stalin had no good reasons to be satisfied with the attitude of his »Allies« who were, at that particular time, waiting for Stalin to fight their common war. They enjoyed the benefit of choice to decide when, how and if they would support Russia against the Axis at all. Given the circumstances Stalin had to push into two directions: (i) to remotely threaten Allies with probability of separate peace and (ii) bring discord among Germans.
     
  15. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    The following (German source) says this:
    Die Initiative zu den Friedenssondierungen zwischen 1943 und 1945 ging allemal von den Deutschen aus:rough translation:all the initiatives concerning peace feelings between 1943 and 1945 were coming from Germany .
    Source is Die Zeit:www.zeit.de/1989/23/zeit/geschichten
    And,whatever von Thoma was claiming,there are no proofs for peace negociations between 1941/1943,and,if there were peace feelings/negotiations,how/why von Thoma would be aware of it ? He only was commanding a PzD on the East Front .Btw:his declarations are that vague,that,IMHO,he only was alluding to gossip .
     
  16. leccy1

    leccy1 Member

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    I have seen no definite proof of any peace proposals. I have however seen many people claim that because certain people may have mentioned that there should be a possible peace that this constitutes a formal or even a feeler for peace.

    The wording I have seen generally goes along the lines of 'it may be advantageous to seek peace' or captured officers talking amongst themselves that they now feel Germany should call for peace.

    Both are a far cry from actually starting discussions about the possibility of a settlement.
     
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  17. efestos

    efestos Member

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    "Dokument nicht gefunden"

    I agree ... in fact I did in the original thread ... Das vergangene Reich. Hildebrant. I don´t have this book (in fact I would need a traslation) This book is quoted referring to earlier conversations (before Zitadelle) ... but with out more references ... all very vague.
     
  18. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    I have found it:

    Vojtech Mastny's »Stalin and the Prospects of a Separate Peace in World War II«

    I have OCRed the article into a searchable PDF file. You can download it from the link below.
     

    Attached Files:

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  19. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    Hitler would never have accepted a peace because his whole reason for power was to destroy the Jewish Bolshevik threat. One critical factor in Hitlers decision was the critical lack of resources under German control. Germany was at Stalins mercy for the supply of food and most raw materials. The German economy would have collapsed without Soviet imports.
     
  20. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    That's questionable:
    1)between september 1939 and june 1941,the oil import from the SU was some 6 % of Germany's oil consumption
    2)more fundamentally :eek:n 22 june 1941,the imports from the SU stopped,and,....the German economy did not collaps.
     

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