Sorties by Tirpitz, Admiral Scheer, Gneisenau, Prinz Eugen...etc

What could they have done-realistically, had they been allowed to operate effectively and put some good use to those well-spent Reichmarks????

 

They didn't get to live up to their full potential because it was too risky to send them out in the first place.
Surely if they went out to do their job of commerce raiding they would have all been destroyed just like the Bismark.
the German Navy quickly realized after the Bismark fiasco that it was too costly in manpower and money to send out large surface ships. They learned the best method economically and strategically was the submarine.
I mean think of all the submarines and sub crews that could have been created from the iron and crews of just Bismark and Tirpitz alone. Surely the return in sunk shipping would have been more since bismark hardly had time to do any damage at all to shipping and that Tirpitz never even went out!

 

The ships needed a heavy Destroyer escort service but most of these units were destroyed earlier in Norwegian waters. Without them the heaviers ships could of done nothing. Also a good defensive air system working closely with twin engine Luftwaffe a/c.

E

 

Perhaps those beautiful and awesome ships would have been wasted in suicide missions like the Bismarck. But if you think well, the Bismarck was not wasted, the Tirpitz did! The mighty Tirpitz never saw real action!

Just a ship, the Bismarck made Great Britain tremble, and that single ship made the British use all their Atlantic fleet to chase it! It was like 30 important ships to destroy a single ship! They finally did. But, don't you remember that April 1941 was the best month for U/boats in 1941?
Why? Because there were no escorts! Why? Because all of them were chasing the Bismarck! The battle of the Atlantic would have been different if the Tirpitz had made a voyage like the Bismarck's, diverting the entire British fleet!

 

It can be argued, but I do still believe that if the Luftwaffe maritime units could of been more effective with numbers of a/c and fully loaded with heavier armaments and longer range fuel tanks then air superiorty could of been acheived over the Atlantic and even elsewhere and then the raiders could of travelled as they wished at least to some point. Would of also have had to contend with US and British submarine activities, but then again if the Kriegsmarine would of had a superior Destroyer and escort service then .......

E

 

hmmm i think that is an exaggeration if i ever saw one!
granted the British used a lot of ships to chase the bismarck...but the only real escorts that REALLY mattered were the corvettes, destroyers, and destroyer escorts. The British predominantly used capitol ships like cruisers, carriers , and battleships to chase the Bismarck. Granted those forces did include destroyers but i personally find it HIGHLY unlikey that, that had anything to do with that month being so good for u-boats.
The only reason the u-boats did well then was because of a genuine lack of escorts in the entire navy as well as sound defensive tactics and weapons. The u-boats simply did better because the u-boats and tactics were simply more advanced than the british defense. The Bismarch battle i feel probably did nothing either way.
Now if Tirpitz went out...the chance of her making an impact for the u-boats was even LESS because by the time of her deployment the US would be in the war...and the forces used to destroy the tirpitz would not have any effect on the allies ability to defend their convoys...since by this time allied defensive technology would be as good or better than the u-boats offensive technology.

i guess my point is that i find it highly unlikly that the cruises of the Bismarck or the tirpitz did not and would not have had any impact on the British ability to defend their convoys.

 

I do agree that the British used mostly large capital ships to chase the Bismarck, but also many small ships: corvettes, destroyers, torpedo boats took part on it. Also, many aeroplanes were diverted from the task of looking for submarines to look for the Bismarck. Even the escort of a convoy which carried 20.000 British soldiers to the Mediterranean was diverted. Aircraft Carriers did also. You have got to accept that it was very important for the total amount of sunk allied shipping. You are right, Ron, about Doenitz' tactics!

 

I think the only thing that effected u-boat victories for that month or that time period for that matter was u-boat tactics and British inability to counter them effectively even with escorts.
I still find it highly unlikely the 4 day battle did all that much to increase u-boat victories.

the Bismark was a great looking ship but was a waste of resources and men. The men and material would have been better off being used for other u-boats.
The german's obviosley didn't learn a lesson from WW1. That it was impossible to go head to head with britian with battleships. Their most potent weopon in WW1 was the u-boat...and in WW2 it was again the u-boat. The bismarck and tirpitz did more as propaganda tools than they did in combat. They were a waste to the war effort.

 

And next to the U-boot arm were the Schnellbooten and the Auxiliary cruisers. It may of been wise not too put so many in the U-boat arm and start thinking seriously about the S-boats as they were of extreme concern to the Allies right before the D-Day landings. This being the reason why the chief ports were bombed beyond belief, that very few were to come out of their ports to attack the Allied shipping on 6-6-44.

Wonder too if the big ships had they not been sunk in their ports what they may have achieved in the support role for the Wehrmacht in the Ost, along the Baltic. The Hipper and the Prinz Eugen seem to be all that there was for big guns......

E

 

The first issue is fuel. The Axis began to suffer fuel shortages for naval operations by 1942, especially getting it to Norway in suffiecient quantities. Operations after 1942 cannot be considered without thinking about this factor.

The Kriegsmarine showed what it could do in Norway in 1940 and in the Baltic in 1945. Admittedly they lost or had disabled many ships in 1940, but they also destroyed a British Carrier and managed a successful invasion without having sea control.

In terms of their influence on the Atlantic their situation as a "fleet in being" pinned British vessels to the Home Fleet and forced the use of older Battleships as convoy escorts.

Actually putting to sea was another thing entirely. Bismarck, Scharnhorst and Graf Spee all lost on this sort of mission. The limitations placed on their deployment and ROE by Hitler dulled crew initiative and robbed captains of some favourable opportunities.

They paid their way in 1940 and in 1945. Hitler never understood their limitations, but by concentrating on Atlantic raids we don't do their other activities justice.

Jumbo

 

I will quote Erich Raeder:

"With the present resources and strenght of the Kriegsmarine, even doing our best, the only thing it can do is to show how to die with honour"

(I know it is not the exact phrase, but it it the same escence...)