SPGs / assault gun / tank destroyers

I'd like to list the pros and cons of SPG/AG/TD vehicles. Would you please help me?

P.S. If this is done already, inform me.

 

It almost certainly has but that's never a good reason not to reopen a topic, after all new member turn up and they might have something new and interesting to add.


The note Self Propelled Guns and Tank Destroyers are technically different beasts with different roles on the battlefield.


A tank destroyers principal advantage is cost. Whether turret-less like the British Archer or the German Jagpanther, or turreted like the American Hellcat, tank destroyers are generally cheaper than their matching tanks. The draw back is that such vehicles are less capable all round. Vehicles like Archer could not fire on the move and so would be neutralized completely if immoblised. Turreted vehicles like the Hellcat were very lightly armoured compared to contemporary tanks.


Self propelled guns are basically a field gun mounted on a vehicle. Advantage far more mobile, disadvantage cost a lot more.

Anyone else want to carry on?

 

Ok, let's concentrate on assault guns like StuG and (I)SU.

 

Pros:
can fit a bigger gun in a lower vehicle. No vulnerable turret ring, lots of possibility for nice sloped frontal armour.

Cons:
very limited traverse of main armament.

 

I'm glad this topic has surfaced, I've always wondered why so many TDs/SPGs were open topped, especially those designed from sctatch such as a TD like the Hellcat. I've heard it argued that it was to remind the crews that they weren't in tanks and couldn't mix it with tanks in open warfare. However this sounds a bit flimsy.

Favourite assault gun has to be Sturmtiger - imagine the effect of a Sturmtiger mortar round! I wonder if by luck or design they ever hit another AFV? The results would be messy. Any opinions?

TD/SPG pros - Low height

Cons - vulnerable to flanking fire

 

TDs in the shape of no turret and big gun are generally much more powerful than full tanks of the same size, lower than those tanks, and more heavily armoured than those tanks. They are also far cheaper and less complicated to build. However, they can't see or fire anywhere except in front of them, which in a mobile war presents obvious problems.

The Sturmtiger was a useless design, because it was supposed to take out bunkers and fortifications yet it was produced when Germany was fighting a defensive war and therefore faced no such situations as enemy bunkers opposing their advance.

The general idea of American tank destroyers, usually open-topped, was to get in fast, deliver some shots at long range, and get out equally fast. Armour was sacrificed for speed and mobility. I don't know for certain, but I think the TDs were left open-topped to improve the all-around view of gunner and commander, and also to emphasize the function of mobile AT gun rather than tank.

 

True but Sturmtigers were used in the Warsaw uprising in Aug 44 to demolish strongpoints.There were also unconfirmed reports of them destroying 3 Shermans in the Ardennes, albeit by indirect fire

 

Here are some pics for panzermeister recently taken at the Duxford IWM land hall. You can really appreciate the small size of the Hetzer. The stug III is slightly spoiled by the sign asking people not to touch or climb on, or perhaps it was a cunning German addition to the Zimerit to discourage sappers! I've included the pz IV just because it's fairly rare to see pre F2 examples.

 

The gun of a tank destroyer has a very limited cross traverse(hope I got the translation right), but this does not matter much, because TDs are defensive weapons. They are not supposed to engage in a mobile battle with other tanks, instead they wait in a hideout. Tactically TDs are rather self-propelled and armoured AT-guns, than tanks without a turret.

The american TDs were different, but this was due to their flawed doctrin.
This article provides a lot of information on US TDs in WW2, especially about the problems caused by their doctrin.

pdf-file:
Seek, Strike, and Destroy: U.S. Army Tank Destroyer Doctrine in World War II

 

We have done "Best TD" a couple of times already, I think. But that is no reason for not doing it again. New members have, as already mentioned, joined us since last time we did it.

I like the angle on this topic better than the usual "best of" btw. Defining the pros and cons doesn´t exlude a number of AFVs the way the "best of" topic has a tendency to do.

I do think, however, that we should have had separate threads for at least TDs and Assault Guns, maybe even for the SPGs. I´m very happy to finally see the Assault Guns get some attention btw.

 

The US TD's were open topped to give the gun crews better visibility.

 

and in some peoples opinion to remind the crew that despite the fact that it looked like a tank, sounded like a tank and was armed like a tank it still wasn't actually a tank.

 

But would anyone go as far as to make a psychological point to his own soldiers by putting them in severe physical danger? The open top, while making very clear that they shouldn't feel like they are in a tank, also makes them very vulnerable to HE fire.

 

But, if doctrine is followed ( :roll: ) TDs would not be exposed to HE fire...
Designers & specifiers can often conceive an idea with glaring huge problems, and not realise this.

 

There was no psychological intention behind the open top of the US TDs. The design intent, in keeping with the TD philosophy and doctrine, was simply to provide the crews with better all around visibility. Later in the war it was not uncommon for crews to field rig turret tops.

 

No roof also allowed the gun to be depressed more, i think.
Was this an issue with TDs?

 

TDs are cool. Would it be ok to ask for personal favorite TDs? I like the Hetzer because it looks cool and could have been very effective against the US/British forces. they were also more practical and easy to make than Jadgpathers, jadgtigers, and yes even the Strumtiger

 

My vote also for Hetzer, but not because it looks cool but because it has well-sloped frontal armor, OK gun and it's low ie. easy to hide and set an ambush.

 

Another picture of the Duxford Hetzer...

 

Noob alert...:

What are SPG/AG/TD vehicles... :roll: