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Stalin's Aggressive Plan in 1941

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe October 1939 to February 1943' started by Cheshire Cat, Aug 17, 2009.

  1. Challenge

    Challenge recruit

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    In June 1941, the Red ARMY suffered a crushing defeat, which was explained. Communist historians acknowledged the remarkable qualities of the T-34, but added that these tanks were very few in number; there were only 967 of them. Many educated and honest historians repeated that on June 21, 1941, Stalin only had 967 T-34s. Even if this had been true, the word “only” was disputable – the rest of the world had none. In the five western border military districts, which constituted the first strategic echelon of the Red Army there really were 967 T-34. But the forces of the second strategic echelon were being secretly transferred to the western regions of the country. They also had T-34 tanks. In total, the Red Army had 1,225 of them on May 31, 1941. By June, the factories shipped out and unloaded another 138 T-34s. On top of this, another 37 T-34s were produced, tested, but not yet shipped. Overall, at the time of the invasion, the Soviet Union had exactly 1,400 T-34s. (“Military and Numeric Composition of the Armed Forces of the USSR”, statistical Almanac, no.1
    However even this was not all. The T-34 was produced in series. Meanwhile, the attempts to create an equal or superior tank in Germany began only in November 25, 1941. In June, July, August, September, and October 1941, Germany had not yet begun attempts to create an analogous tank, while the Soviet Union factories continued producing the T-34. During the second half of 1941, Soviet industry put out another 1,789 T-34s in addition to the 1,400 that existed on June 22. In 1942, the production of T-34s went at rate of thirty-five a day. In 1942 12,520 T-34 tanks were produced. Very few, I agree. But in Germany, the production of an analogous tank had not yet begun.
    The German equal of the T-34 was the Panther, which first appeared in the summer of 1943 during the great tank battle at Kursk
    General Field Marshal von Kleist said: “Their T-34 was the best in the world.” Major General von Mellentin agreed: “We had nothing equal to the T-34”…”the best example of an offensive weapon of WWII.” General Field Marshal von Rundstedt also thought that the T-34 was the best tank in the world. Colonel General Guderian remembered: “A large number of T-34 tanks were used in battle [Guderian is referring to the hostilities in October 1941 near Mtsensk, northeast of Orel], causing significant losses among our tanks. Previously existing hardware superiority of our tanks forces was now lost and shifted to the opponent. Therefore, a prospect for rapid and continuous success disappeared.” Our 50-mm and 37-mm anti-tank guns were completely useless against the T-34.” (Heinz Guderian, A Soldier’s Memoirs, 231)
    Lieutenant General Westphal admitted: “The arrival of Soviet weapons that surpassed the German ones in quantity was a very unpleasant surprise. One such weapon was the T-34, against which the German anti-tank weapons were powerless.”
    Infantry General Blumentritt agreed with his colleagues: “ In 1941, the T-34 was the most powerful of all existing tanks…. In the vicinity of Verei, the T-34 without any hesitation penetrated the position of the 7th Infantry Division, reached the artillery positions and literally squashed the guns. One can imagine what kind of impact it had on the morale of the infantry. The so-called ‘tank phobia started.”



    By the June 1941 Soviets also had advanced 711 KV, and continued their production through all of 1942, while German designers drafted sketches, made prototypes, and assembled test models.
    It is impossible even in theory to compare the KV-1 and KV-2 with the “very best” German tanks, the Pz-III and Pz-IV: the KV was a heavy tank, while the German army army had no tanks of this weight class in 1941. When the war war began, Stalin put into use the KV-1(47 tons) and the KV-2(52tons), as well the “obsolete” T-35 (50 tons), while Hitler had nothing similar and was forced to use the best that he had – the obsolete medium Pz-III and Pz-IV , which weighed 20 and 21 tons. I would not compare them at all if the German army had anything more noteworthy, but it did not. During the war, the KV fought against the best that was available in the German army – and the war drew its comparisons.
    General of the Army K. N. Galitsky described the battle between one heavy KV and three medium German Pz-IIIs: The KV fired two shots and two of the German tanks were destroyed, while the third German tank decided to leave, but its engine stalled while trying to drive across a ditch. The KV caught up with it and “smashed it with its weight, crushed it like a nut.” He described another incident: A damaged Soviet KV was found, surrounded by ten destroyed German tanks. The KV was hit by forty-three shells, out of which forty made dents, and only three went through the armor. While the German tanks were destroying one KV, it destroyed ten German tanks.
    Colonel General A.I. Rodimtsev remembered: “ During the course of eleven months of war, we did not know a single instance in which a German gun pierced the armor of this tank. It had happened that a KV had ninety to one hundred dents from enemy shells, but still continued to go into battle.”
    Perhaps Soviet generals were embellishing the situation? No. In German sources of that time there was a subdued panic: German tankers were used to their tanks being the best in the world, and suddenly they came against the KV. They were unprepared. German documents of the time are sufficiently known. I will not repeat them. The general conclusion for the year 1941 was: “The KV is the most frightening weapon that a soldier has ever had to encounter in battle. Anti-tank guns are powerlees against it.”

    KV-1 and KV-2 weighed 47 and 52 tons, respectively. The KV was the first tank in the world with a true anti-shell armor: it had a frontal armor of 75 mm, which could be further reinforced. The wide caterpillar track of the KV allowed it to fight on almost any terrain in any weather conditions. The KV had 600-horsepower diesel engine.
    A 76-mm short-barrel F-32 gun was installed on KV. At that time, this gun was unrivaled in the world. KV-1 had initial shell speed of 662 m/s. The KV-2 had 152-mm howitzer. The most powerful German tank shell of that time weighed 6.8 kg. But the KV-2 fired concrete-destroying shells that weighed 39.9 at an initial speed of 529 m/s, and high –explosive 48.7 kg.
    The KV remained the most powerful tank in the world throughout the first half of WWII, right up to the Stalingrad battle. No other country on the world had anything comparable in the same weight class.
    The KV design had reserves for improvement, which enabled it to undergo several stages of development from the KV-1 to the KV-13. Later, it turned into the IS-1 and then the IS-2, the most powerful tank of World War II.



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  2. olegbabich

    olegbabich Member

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    The human factor played a major role in 1941. When Germans attacked the disorganization and lack of trust in Soviet government led to early defeats. The political leadership of Army and of civilian frontier areas was in many cases, first to run away. Thus leaving junior party apparatchiks to make decisions for themselves. There was also fear of Germans as well.

    Imagine working for company that striped you of your dignity and put your well being on the bottom of its priorities. Then being told there is a toxic spill and you have to clean it up while the bosses are running away. I do not know about you, but I would run away too. Toxic spills are scary. Soviet government are the bosses and Germans are the toxic spill.

    Only after finding out that Germans are here to kill you like a dog no matter what, does Russian resistance stiffens. Your only choices are to be enslaved by Germans, to be shot by NKVD or to fight to the end. Ivan chooses door number 3.
     
  3. Grin

    Grin recruit

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    I don't think this was a main factor.

    By the 22 June 1941 Soviets had 5,7 million of Regular Army and had unprecedented experience in Winter War with Finland, where they broke through the Mannerheim Line.

    All leading military experts before the Winter War declared that breaking through the Mannerheim Line, taking any amount of time, could not be done by any army. The Red Army did the impossible. Furthermore, it broke through the line impromptu, for it had not prepared for such limiting conditions. The Red Army broke through the line in only three months, when all the military experts of the West maintained that it could not be done in any time frame. The Red Army conducted in Finland a unique and unparalleled operation. The Red Army performed in a fashion unrivaled and unrepeated by any army in history

    Bear in mind that in the war SU had used only 15% of prewar capacity of Ministry of Ammunition. The rest had been lost at the begging of war. By sudden blow strike Hitler destroyed not only regular divisions of Red Army and aircrafts, not only grasped the strategic reserves, but also has captured territories on which there were the newest factories of the Ministry of Ammunition. When retreating, the Red Army destroyed its own plants, or just abandoned them.
    Something was shipped. But try to move at least one blast furnace thousands of kilometers. Try to take away at least one thousand tons of shells from the border forest, load them into cars and take out under fire.

    In the initial period of war Red Army lost not only 500000 tons of ordnance, but also the industry that could produce new shells. In the border areas the Red Army lost 25 000 wagons with shells.

    From August to November 1941, German troops captured 303 Soviet factories producing powder, bullets, shells, and had an annual output - 101 million shell casings, 32 million artillery mines casings, 24 million shells of bombs, 61 million shell casings, 30 million hand grenades, 93 600 tons of powder, 36000 tons of trotyl. This was 85 per cent of all facilities of Ministry of the ammunition. In addition to it, in the shell factories were concentrated strategic reserves of precious commodities: calico, brass, alloyed steel. All of this was taken by Germans and used against the Red Army.
    But the Stalin’s pre-war potential was so huge, that he was able to build during the war a new industry of munitions beyond the Volga and the Urals, in Siberia, and to produce all, that later was brought down on the German army.
    Hitler struck Stalin a sudden blow, and Stalin had been beating back with 15 percent of capacity of the Ministry of Ammunition. The results of the war are known. Try to imagine what could happen if Hitler delayed to blow and fell under Stalin's crushing blow. In this case, Stalin would have used in the war not 15 per cent of capacity, but all 100%. What would have been the outcome of the Second World War?
    In 1942 the Red Army secretly prepared and conducted Stalingrad’s counteroffensive. Some are saying that since then the Soviet Union became a superpower. But only someone who does not know the true extent of Stalin's preparations for war can say it. Yes, Stalingrad - the famous operation, it was attended by masses of infantry, aviation, artillery and tanks. It was conducted by true masters of strategy. But Stalingrad is nothing in comparison with what had been prepared in 1941.
    Stalingrad - it is mostly reservists. This is improvisation. In 1941 was prepared almost the same tactic, but with regular Red Army (5,7 millions) and millions of reservists.
    Stalingrad counteroffensive - it is fifteen hundred tanks.
    In 1941, only in the first echelon, there were ten times more. And quality? In 1941, Soviet troops had more T-34 and KV tanks, than they had under Stalingrad.
    Stalingrad - it is a sudden flank attack of two groups. And in 1941 was prepared the same, with exception of that flank groups have been immeasurably more powerful, and dangerously close to Berlin. Stalingrad – it is Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Vasilevsky, Malinovsky, Vatutin. In 1941, these generals prepared operation, which was carried out by them under Stalingrad.
    The Soviet Union was a superpower in 1941. During the summer of 1941 Hitler broke that superpower by a sudden jab. All that, used by Stalin in the war under Stalingrad and Kursk, Moscow and Berlin - is only the fragments and remnants of the original Soviet power.
     
  4. Grin

    Grin recruit

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    At the same time I have to remind you that the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly on July 3, 2009 passed a resolution comparing Stalinism and Nazism. The resolution calls for August 23 to be made a Day of Memory of Victims of Stalinism and Nazism.
    The parliament of the pan-European security body passed a resolution equating the roles of the USSR and Nazi Germany in starting World War II, and condemning the so-called Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, a non-aggression treaty signed on 23 August 1939 between Germany and what was the Soviet Union at the time.
    The resolution would make August 23 a day of remembrance for victims of Stalinism and Nazism. That's the day in 1939 that Germany and the Soviet Union signed a pact carving up Eastern Europe between them. World War II started just over a week later.



    On August 23, 1939, Germany and the Soviet Union signed an agreement in Moscow about the destruction of the Polish state and the division of the Polish territories. Poland had mutual assistance agreements with France and the United Kingdom and, therefore, the attack by the Soviet Union and Germany automatically led to a European-and hence world-war. Indeed, in eight days, on September 1, 1939, World War II broke out. It was a direct and unavoidable result of the agreement reached in Moscow.
    The USSR-Germany agreement is traditionally called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. This moniker misleads and does not truly reflect the essence of what happened. The pact that was signed in Moscow was a plot between Hitler and Stalin to conduct an aggressive war in Europe together. Therefore, that agreement in effect was a Stalin-Hitler pact. Furthermore, in international practice it is much more common to use not the names of the statesmen that concluded the agreement , but the place where the documents were signed: the Munich Agreements, the Warsaw Pact, the Baghdad Pact, and the Geneva Agreement. Therefore, in accordance with common diplomatic practice, the more precise name of the pact would be the 1939 Moscow Agreement of the Start of World War II. Both parties received approximately equivalent shares – part of Poland went to Hitler, the other part went to Stalin. However, just eight days after signing the Moscow pact, Stalin violated it. Hitler started a war of aggression against Poland with hope that his ally Stalin would do the same. But Stalin cheated Hitler.
    On September 1 and in the subsequent two weeks the Soviet troops stood next to the Polish borders without conducting warfare and crossing the borders. The explanation of the Soviet government to the German counterpart was: the time has not come yet for action by the Red Army. As a result, the entire fault for the beginning of the war fell upon Germany, upon Hitler and his entourage. They entered world history as the chief and only cause of World War II.
    Poland was divided not in the Imperial Chancellery, but in the Kremlin. Hitler was not present, Stalin was. But Hitler is at fault for the starting of the war, while Stalin is not. Stalin entered history as an innocent victim and the liberator of Europe.
    The invasion of the German troops into Poland had other consequences too: on September 3, 1939, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany. Already on the third day Germany was involved in a two-front war; that is, it wound up in an unwinnable situation. Since Germany practically lacked strategic raw materials, the two-front war was fatal for Germany.
    Lack of raw materials not only prohibited Germany from conducting a two-front war, but also a prolonged single-front war. The only hope was for blitzkrieg – instant defeat of the opponent. France could be defeated in a lightning war, but Great Britain is an island nation. To defeat Britain, long and serious preparation is needed, as well as a powerful navy that is equal to or exceeds the British navy. German air power was insufficient to crush British industry and achieve air superiority. Therefore, on the third day the war already looked long and unpromising for Germany.
    In a prolonged war against Britain and her allies, Hitler would inevitably exhaust his resources. In September 1939, the Germany government repeatedly reminded the government of the USSR about their obligation and demanded the Red Army’s invasion of Poland according to the agreement. The Soviet government would refuse – not right away, but with a two- to three-day delay. For example, in response to the German demarche of September 3, Molotov responded on September 5: “We agree with you that concrete action has to be taken at an appropriate time. However, we consider that such a time has not come yet. It is possible that we are mistaken, but it appears to us that excessive haste could cause us harm and facilitate unification among our enemies.”
    The German government kept repeating its demands and kept getting refused. Red Army units started military action in Poland only after two and a half weeks – September 17. Stalin’s troops committed similar, or maybe even worse, atrocities in Poland, but Great Britain and France did not declare war on the Soviet Union. Great Britain, France and their allies were interested in preventing Germany from using Soviet strategic resources. To do so, it was necessary to keep Stalin at their side at any cost and, in case of war between Germany and the Soviet Union, to keep the Red Army from being defeated.
    As a result of the pact signed in Moscow in 1939 Stalin achieved a war, one which he desired and for which he had planned and prepared for a long time: The nations of Western Europe were mired in a destructive war, but the Soviet Union remained neutral. Now Stalin could wait for the total exhaustion and self-destruction of Central and Western Europe. Hitler guessed Stalin’s intentions and in 1941 suddenly and almost fatally struck the Soviet Union. In this critical situation, Stalin received free aid from the United States and Great Britain, which in volume and quality did not have a historical precedent. At the same time, the Soviet role in unleashing World War II was quickly and thoroughly forgotten. In the final count, Poland for whose freedom the Western European states had entered World War II, did not gain its freedom, but was given, along with all of Central Europe and part of Germany, into Stalin’s control.
    It is customary to consider Britain and France among the victors. However, this is clearly a mistake. The purpose for which Great Britain and France entered World War II was ensuring Poland’s independence. This aim was not achieved as a result of the war; therefore, there is no cause to celebrate victory.
    As a final result of the Moscow pact, Hitler committed suicide and Stalin became the unbound Red ruler of a huge anti-Western empire, created with the West’s help. At the same time, Stalin managed to keep his reputation of a naïve, trustful simpleton, and Hitler entered history as a duplicitous villain. It is accepted that Stalin was ‘not ready’ for war, but Hitler was ‘ready’.
    But the one who wins the war is the one who prepares for war by dividing his enemies and making them fight each other, not the one who makes loud pronouncements.
     
  5. olegbabich

    olegbabich Member

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    With all these numbers stating Soviet military and industrial capacity, I believe that secret mobilization had already begun. One thing to remember that, once mobilization takes place there is no going back. Mobilization means war now and not in the near future or next year. Stalin thought the country and army were ready for war.
     
  6. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

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    No it does not mean "war now". The US began mobilizing before Japan attacked PH. Does that mean the US was going to launch a pre-emtive strike on the Japanese Empire? Stalin was ruthless but he was no fool. He saw what was coming and prepared for it. Why should a country sharing a boarder with an extremely aggressive neighbor not place large numbers of troops along the boarder?
     
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  7. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Oleg,

    I must ask as to where you get your information from?

    The "leadership" did NOT run away... Stalin stayed in Moscow till the very end and did so with his generals even after everyone else had begged him to leave! This is the reason why Moscow and Leningrad did NOT fall.... His top generals stayed as well and prepared defensive positions in the two cities.

    As for choosing "door number 3" this is also incorrect.
    Even during his first speech to the Russian people after Germany's attack, Stalin pleaded with the population to fight for "Mother Russia and the homeland" NOT for him or the Communist Party!!!!
     
  8. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Again an opinion NOT based on fact.

    Even in the first weeks of Barbarossa with the Russian army in disarray, the Wehrmacht encountered stiff resistance which slowed them down for weeks.

    The Russian army suffered from many more shortcomings other then what you have already mentioned and Stalin was aware of them all. It is for all of these short comings that Russia began to modernize her military and did so at a very rapid rate. Remember that Stalin and Hitler had an agreement which allowed Russia to inspect Germany's weapons and train officers. Stalin knew what Germany possessed because it was no secret. To suggest that Stalin was planning on war with Hitler knowing fully well of what Germany possessed in comparison to Russia and her shortcomings is to call the man STUPID, he was far from it. ;)

    History and common sense would disagree.

    There is a difference between mobilizing and modernizing. If Russian forces were in fact mobilizing for war then Stalin would have been well aware of Hitler's intentions and would have followed his every move and taken precautions preparing for the worst. This, however, was not the case. On the eve of Barbarossa, Soviet commanders were away from their posts, no drills for an offensive or defensive war were conducted, no orders in case of an attack were given, planes were on the ground, tanks away from the front lines, soldiers with little or no supply's including food, weapons and ammunition coupled with the only strict order of NOT firing on the German troops for the first several hours, hardly constitutes a mobilization for war.

    On the eve of the German attack, the Russian forces were not mobilized and for this reason suffered the horrific losses which they did.
     
  9. R. Evans

    R. Evans Member

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    Mobilization did not mean war in 1941. Communications were far better than in 1914. Troops were able to be called back. Witness Germany stopping the invasion of Poland in late August.

    And let's not forget, even if the Soviets mobilized, the Germans were already mobilized.
     
  10. olegbabich

    olegbabich Member

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    US Congress would not have allowed Roosevelt to attack Japan in 1941. Us did everything in its power to corner Japan and to provoke it. Japanese attack in the Pacific allowed Roosevelt to enter war in Europe on behalf of Britan.
     
  11. olegbabich

    olegbabich Member

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    By July 1941 Russian Army lost 11,700 tanks, 4,000 planes, 19,00 field guns. Every attempt in counter attack was beaten back.

    By September 1941 Russian Army lost 15,500 tanks, 67,000 field guns, 10,000 planes and 3.8 million rifles and machine guns.

    How is it possible that biggest and most powerful Army in the world is inept in defense and offense alike?

    Rokossowski in his memoirs talks about soldiers running to the rear in mass during early days of the war. Attempts in stopping them or inquiries in where they are going are met with gunfire. Where are the officers? Where is NKVD, GPU?

    There are reports of transport and truck shortages to deliver supplies and evacuate wounded men. The trucks have been commandeered by local party bosses to evacuate their families, staff and families of their staff. Commanders are abandoning their troops and giving orders to retreat without actually receiving them. Telegraph and local city offices which were under NKVD command were abandoned.

    To motivate and prevent this from happening Supreme Soviet on August 16th 1941 writes order #270 – “Families of deserters and of persons taken prisoner can be arrested, their possessions seized and any government assistance taken away”. Then on September 12th order # 001919 gives directive of creating NKVD cover battalions. Cover battalions make sure that you fight or die.

    Stalin did not run away. But his army did! He even asked Russian church for help. Stalin realized his people were not going to fight for him.
     
  12. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Japan bombing Pearl Harbor is what brought the U.S. into the Pacific.
    Hitler declaring war on the U.S. after Pearl Harbor, brought the U.S. into Europe. ;)
     
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  13. olegbabich

    olegbabich Member

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    I do not think Hitler would have declaired war at that time without Pearl Harbor.
     
  14. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

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    This is no different then anything that goes on today. A country gets aggresive and they get sanctions and embargoes placed upon them. All Japan had to do was stop its attempted conquest of China.

    And I still have yet to see any evidence that the Soviet Union was ready to implement a full scale invasion of Europe or that they started any of the hostilities with Japan in 1938 or 39.
     
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  15. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    It didn't allow the US to enter war, it wasn't against the rules or anything.
     
  16. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    That is because this army was only powerful on paper. The Soviet military at this time was completely obsolete. The Red Army's military doctrine was also obsolete (The Red Army still resembled that of WWI). No leadership, no orders, no plans also played a role. Many weapons had no ammo or the ammo simply didnt fit. Confusion, starvation, and fear also helped fuel the fire. The uninvited guests on the other hand not only did not suffer from any of these set backs but also enjoyed complete surprise and marched in with the morale and experience of conquering virtually all of Europe.


    Many ran in the opening days of the war. The opening months were met with absolute confusion and devastation. What would you have done if you were met with such a force and had no commanding officer, no orders, no experience, no ammo, cold, hungry.....etc.? They were after all just human.

    Don't forget that even with all of this devastation, the Red Army in the opening WEEKS was still able to inflict more casualties on the Wehrmacht then all of Germany's previous conquests.

    Eerily similar to what German retreats resembled in some parts of the Eastern front post 43'

    Yes, all of this was done. But not because of the lack of caring for soldiers but more of an act of desperation, to somehow prevent them from retreating in order to slow the German advance and prepare fortified positions elsewhere. This was done to save the country from total collapse and only reinforces the notion that Stalin was not prepared for war.

    As for NKVD units, these men (especially in Stalingrad) would fight hand and hand with the regular Red Army soldiers. They performed all of the same duties that a regular soldier did but also had the job of shooting deserters or if someone was to retreat with out orders. Germans too did this, Paulus in Stalingrad executed over 300 men in a week for the same reasons.

    The situation in Russia on the opening days was in fact grim. Stalin was nervous (to say the least) and looked everywhere for help but according to his first public speech since the invasion, he pleaded with the people to fight for the motherland not him, and they did.

    Had Stalin's army ran away as you claim, Moscow would have fallen and no Russian soldier would have made it to Berlin.
     
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  17. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    Quite possibly, but then again Hitler wasnt the sharpest tool in the shed.
     
  18. olegbabich

    olegbabich Member

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    American Congress and public had a strong antiwar stance.
     
  19. JagdtigerI

    JagdtigerI Ace

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    Alright I suppose, but the use of the word allow still seems off to me. I don't believe FDR was itching to go to war with Germany.
     
  20. olegbabich

    olegbabich Member

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    You are right, USA did not want war, but FDR wanted to help England.
     

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