Stanton a Liar?

I was not aware that he had been accused of historical inaccuracy or misrepresentation in addition to fibbing about his own record. If those allegations are true, then that is of course a very serious matter.

 

I wonder if the WW2 order of battle is wrong.

 

This is top shelf stuff.
A lawyer, is mentioned.
Smiles, fire up the popcorn.

 

That thread left me very confused. I note that the last post was in 2013 as well. Can anyone clarify just what was going on there (I'm far from an expert on uniforms and there was an awful lot of beating around the bush there).

On another note:
It would seem to me that if he wasn't misleading people about his record that would be easy to prove. If he is then he is guilty of "historical inaccuracies" as his record is now part of history.

On the other hand it would be nice to see a fair amount more detail on the other transgressions. It's easy to make general accusations and pretty hard to disprove them. Even a bit more detail would be helpful.

 

Scroll down for a couple of interesting reviews.
Handbags or justified anger, I couldn't possibly say, but these two gentlemen do not like one another...

http://www.amazon.ca/product-reviews/096670360X?pageNumber=21

 

Interesting. Sounds like Stolen Valor has some significant flaws in a few areas. On the other hand I noted multiple reviews by some of the one star reviewers and many substituted emotion for areas in a review where reason would have been preferred.

I'm beginning to think that the best solution would be to lock the proponents of both sides in the same room and throw away the key.

 

It's a complicated subject. While I feel strongly that those claiming honors they don't rate should be prosecuted, taking honors from someone that does rate them through false accusations or lack of due diligence is also "Stolen Valor". Of the comments referred to by LWD, many are that Burkett served as a REMF/Pogue in Vietnam. So? When has it been disreputable to serve in a war zone in whatever capacity, as far as I know he never claimed otherwise. Now if he is claiming combat service in the field, when he in fact did not do so, that is a big deal.
Many seem to be upset because he disputes some PTSD and Agent Orange claims. Well that might be because the two subjects go hand in hand. If someone served stateside as a clerk typist, and then claims combat service and that he/she suffers PTSD as a consequence of that service in order to obtain VA benefits, then they deserve to inhabit the lower, hotter regions of hell. The only thing worse is someone that didn't serve at all claiming the same. You also need to consider that if the people at the VA are dealing with obviously fraudulent claims on a regular basis, when a real one comes in they will be skeptical and that may result in that veteran not getting the treatment he/she needs and deserves.

Dakota Meyer, Medal of Honor, Afghanistan, wrote in his book; Into the Fire: A Firsthand Account of the Most Extraordinary Battle in the Afghan War, that at one point in his life after returning from the war, he was suffering badly from PTSD. Finally, when he came close to committing suicide he decided to seek help. They put him in a group couseling program and on his first visit was there with six or seven (don't remember the exact number) of "supposed" Vietnam combat veterans. He said it only took him a few minutes of listening to them talk to realize that none of them had ever been in combat. He left and didn't go back. How many other combat veterans that needed help were sent to the same or similar groups and didn't continue their therapy because of the same thing? How many later took their lives? Just because some arsehole decides they need the attention or want to get money and benefits they never earned.

When my older sons unit returned from Iraq, there was a Fobbit named M****n, (I won't use his real name) who when the papers were interviewing the returning Marines started feeding the reporters with all these tales of his combat actions. He made the front page of the paper on one day and like page three (and 3/4's of the page at that) in a followup story about a week later. Problem was he sat on Al Asad airbase in a communications center his entire deployment, never once went outside the wire, and repeated stories he had "appropriated" from the Marines that had performed the combat missions. Within six months of their return M****n claimed debilitating PTSD, asked for and recieved a medical discharge with a very high percentage disability and therefore a monthly income and medical benefits. Everyone knew it was a lie but let it slide, they hated him but he wasn't worth the effort to do more. Then a few months later the first suicide, one of the combat Marines, one very well liked and respected, had been self-medicating heavily with alcohol, realized he was in trouble and checked himself into the base hospital at Quantico. Unfortunately, he'd waited too long and killed himself that night. The Marines he had deployed with were devastated. Then their sister unit was preparing to deploy and there was a family day to see them off and my sons unit was working it, so the deploying Marines could socialize, mingle, spend some time with their wives, kids, parents and siblings before getting on the busses. Guess who shows up, M****n. He's crying and trying to be the center of attention. That was the straw that broke the camels back. The Gunny was standing there and said, "I'll give $300. to whoever knocks that motherf****r out." I went over to one of my sons friends, a real tush hog, but a great, very respectful, young man, and said, "Hey Ju***n, Gunny said he'd give you $300. to knock M****n the fug out." "Really? And I won't get in trouble? Done." And he started walking towards M****n. I went back to the Gunny and said, "It's done." "Whats done?" "Ju***n's going over to take care of M****n." He looked startled and scared all of a sudden and took off running to stop him. And did. Soon, thereafter they collected statements from all the available Marines that had been on the deployment, and had his diagnosis and benefits overturned, and last I heard were in the process of having his discharge status downgraded. I lost interest because a few months later the battalion had six suicides in one month and they started a concerted effort to try and get the Marines to seek help. Several months later, another Marine who had gotten out right after the deployment as a Sgt., a really nice guy, he'd gone back to college and finished his Masters and was teaching special needs kids in his home town, killed himself. No one, including his parents or fiance had noticed any problems. He boxed all his stuff up and placed it in storage. He went to his parents house, lay down in the bathtub, covered his head with a sheet and shot himself. In his note, he apologized to everyone, especially his mom. Said he couldn't take the pain anymore. Did it in the bathtub so he wouldn't leave a mess and covered his head with the sheet so his mom would remember him as he was when alive and not as he was in death. Sgt. Mc******, hit them all hard, I went to the funeral. his Marines, about half of them now out came from all across the country to be there. Consider, what if the shame associated with all the fakers, and their phoney PTSD, was the reason this good man wouldn't seek help for his real PTSD. Think about it.

 

I'd just come back from Airborne School and dropped by my dad's bar to have a beer and see him. I was sitting at the bar next to a guy with a Vietnam Veterans cap on and he introduced himself as Aaron Mc. He said he was in the Air Force in Vietnam and we started talking. I bought him a beer and we talked some more. Over the next several days while I was on leave, I'd run into him when I'd go down for a beer and to see my dad. He told me about how he had heart issues and had battled cancer, all related to his Agent Orange exposure in Vietnam. He railed against the VA and how they weren't responsive enough to his case and how they were stonewalling his Agent Orange claim, thereby denying him a greater disability rating. (He was drawing some percentage I just don't remember how much, and I am aware that there are many very real issues with the VA) I was feeling sorry for him and was going to give him some money to help him out. Another regular at the bar Ed C. called me aside and warned me not to. I said, "It's OK. I want to Ed. They've really screwed Aaron around and it's not right for the government to ignore taking care of health problems they've caused." He told me that he and Aaron had joined the Airforce together and had gone to Vietnam together. They had been stationed in Saigon as MP's and had spent most their time dealing with drunken, unruly soldiers on liberty/R&R. I said, "You must be mistaken, he's told me about being on patrols in the bad bush." Nope, I went there with him, we were in the same unit. I extended to be a career planner so I stayed on after he rotated home. (Now one of the best lines ever, I still chuckle at it) "The only bad bush Aaron was ever in was a V.C. hooker with the syph."

It happens here also. How many remember SouthWestPacificVet? Remember he was supposedly a WWII veteran and we all showed him a great deal of respect and bowed to his opinions because after all, he had been there. How much of what he told us is now in our knowledge base, not realizing that he was the source? You can't unhear/unread something.

Then there was the dude that was supposedly a Ranger in Mogadishu during the Blackhawk down mission, can't remember his name, but someone will. He was outed on the forums for being a fraud and serial offender here by some woman he had scammed.

 

I guess one of the things that irritates me about this is it looks like we have authors on both sides of the question who are more concerned with their view points and/or making a buck than they are with the people involved. I might be able to figure out who's more full of it by reading their works but I'm not interested in supporting either side at this point. Maybe when more comes out.

The part about denying PTSD and Agent Orange effects was a real eye opener for me in regards to the Stolen Valor book but I don't know the details of what he claimes. Some of the reviews indicated he didn't seem to believe in any of it but that could just be the reviews. Likewise there look to be some false claimes that weren't acknowledge when contrary proof was presented, which is a real warning flag as well.

*** edited to make it a bit more coherent ***

 

Now, call me paranoid, but phantomdiv may be Mr. Stanton. This is really just a guess, but he is known to respond to online criticism himself (as noted by USMCPrice and VonPoop), not to mention that this user signed up after this topic was posted and his first and only post was on this page. Just a guess.
EDIT: Sorry, posting from my mobile and I didn't notice the second page of conversation so this is a bit of a non-sequitur.

 

I noticed on the amazon page that two of the one star reviews were his (and they were essentially identical), or at least by someone using his name. I also noted another identical pair of one star reviews which also tends to make one think.

The blog with the uniform picture also had a posting by an S.S I think claiming that the use of the picture was not authorized. Still not seeing many hard facts on either side.

 

The argument seems to revolve around one of Stanton's early books on the Vietnam War, and that the author information on the book embellished Mr. Stanton's war record in Vietnam.

Now, was this done at his behest, or was it by the publisher? That I don't know, and what I have seen on the internet is all "He said. She said." with little concrete information.

 

That's primarily all I've found also. Mainly Stanton going after Susan Katz Keating, and Susan Katz Keating going after Stanton. (Well there was the mention in the Supreme Court brief) The only other interesting thing I found was, a tidbit from this book review of "Stolen Valor".
http://www.o4sr.org/publications/pf_v5n1/StolenValor.htm

"Burkett shows how thoroughly everyone has been caught in the web of lies by pretenders. In 1992, Burkett wrote a letter to Col. Harry Summers, Jr., (Ret.), a distinguished fellow at the Army War College and editor of Vietnam magazine. Summers had boasted in an editorial that the magazines’s review board was scrupulous about keeping inaccurate history out of their publication. He stated he and his editors could tell phonies in “the first three sentences.” Burkett pointed out that they had published in the previous issue a bogus POW story that had been stolen from the book Everything We Had. And even the story in that book was bogus!
Moreover, Summers had written an introduction to Shelby Stanton’s book, The Rise and Fall of an American Army, praising him as a “Vietnam combat veteran decorated for valor and now retired as a result of wounds suffered on the battlefield.” But Stanton was not a Ranger performing underwater scuba missions in the Mekong River as he had claimed. He had a desk job in Thailand for one year and was retired from the Army because of his asthma. A few issues later, Shelby Stanton’s name disappeared from the Vietnam masthead."

 

It's sounding more and more like egos and pocketbooks.

 

I've known Captain Shelby L. Stanton, U.S. Army Special Forces (Retired) since 1989 in both a professional and personal capacity and have always found him to be both honest and ethical in all of his dealings with me. His research and writing are of the highest academic standards free of prejudice and any pre-conceived notions. I also know B.G. Burkett and was sent one of the first copies of Stolen Valor to review when it was made available in 1998. After reading it, I found a number of mistakes in regard to the U.S. Marine Corps as well as his chapters on PTSD and Agent Orange. I phoned him from my home (I have my telephone bill that reflects the call that I made) and told him about the mistakes in regard to the U.S. Marine Corps and asked if the chapters on Agent Orange and PTSD were his personal opinions. When he told me that those chapters were his opinion, I requested that he should revise it for any subsequent printings of Stolen Valor in light of the ongoing evidence of the dangers of exposure to dioxin and the new medical evidence in regard to PTSD. I also knew the late Colonel Harry Summers when I wrote and had published a number of articles in Vietnam Magazine. I talked to Colonel Summers about Captain Stanton and requested that he use caution in light of Burkett's accusations in regard to Captain Stanton because all anyone had was one person's word against another person. Any educated individual knows that to prove slander and/or libel in court is very hard because the burden rests with the individual that has been slandered and/or libel to prove harm or damage to one's reputation. If you don't have an unlimited source of money, forget it. My phone calls to the late Colonel Summers are also on my past telephone bills as well. I also met Dakota Meyers on the Concerned Veterans of America tour in 2014 and can tell you that the only thing he knows about Vietnam veterans is what he has read in a book or seen on TV. As a U.S. Marine who served 8 years active duty as well as 40 months of active U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, I can tell you honestly that the veterans I met at the Vet Center (I continue to do volunteer work there off and on since 1984) are there for PTSD and other issues related to their military service. In regard to a friend of the court brief, anyone and/or organization can file one and that includes one to the U.S. Supreme Court. There are questions that need to be answered by B.G. Burkett though. The first one is why did he have his book self-published and not have it done by a major publisher? If this book is as eye-opening as individuals who have read it say it is, then publishers would be fighting over the rights to publish it. The second is that B.G. Burkett doesn't know how the other services worked in Southeast Asia and this was brought out by a number of veterans. The third is about the background of Ms. Keating and her stint at the Washington Times. I made a number of phone calls and was told (this was in the 1990s) that she left the paper for personal reasons which could really mean anything. She has been holding a personal grudge against Captain Stanton for years. I also have looked at both the U.S. Army CID investigation and FBI investigation and both came to the conclusion that Captain Stanton did nothing wrong and that he rated another decoration. In regard to Ms. Keating's site, I was the one that submitted the last entry in 2013. Respectfully Submitted-Robert A. Lynn

 

You ended up in the cooler a lot back then. Think that you can find it?

 

I've been looking for it, it's in one of the threads that JCFIII and I got into on. The jist of the post is that Stanton was tasked with assessing the strength and formations of the Russians during WW2 and use the information he culled to develop a threat assessment of Soviet forces as it would apply to modern day (70's-80's) Soviet aggressions. He was given sole access to Soviet/ German archives to figure this stuff out. I think he was assigned to G-3 USAEUR Man power and Logisitics at the time.

So, he was the sole person to see the information and the only person who could verify what he saw. In his report he cited himself as a source. The other part is that this report/ assessment affected his job; meaning that if his assessment proved that his services weren't required then he'd be down the road.

Now I am not saying that he "cooked the books", but, there was nobody who had more to lose if he didn't and there was no way to verify his data; he was in a perfect self serving position.

I may need access to "the Latrine" to find it.

 

There were some things I forgot to add to correct some of the comments from individuals on this site: First, in regard to Dakota Meyer and his placement in a group of Vietnam veterans for help with his PTSD. This is wrong according to mental health protocol and per VA SOP. I base this on my own experience of having been in a group for PTSD as well. Veterans in these PTSD or "Rap" groups are placed in groups that contain veterans of the conflict they fought in. For example, I was in a group with other Vietnam veterans and when Desert Storm veterans started to utilize the Vet Centers, they were put within their own group and run by a licensed mental health professional. The same went for married couples who could be in a group or have a one on one session with a mental health professional. It was their choice. To place a Afghanistan or Iraq veteran within the Vietnam veterans community isn't helping that veteran at all unless they were in that conflict. The veterans would talk to each other before and after group but they would split up into their own groups at the appropriate time and date. This is the way it is still done today. Even when World War II and Korean War veterans started to use the Vet Centers, they were placed into their own respective groups with their own mental health professional. So there is no way any Vet Center would place Meyer in a group with Vietnam veterans. Second, in regard to Captain Stanton and him having to do a threat assessment and then using himself as a source is false. He's not using himself as the source but the documents he was utilizing in that assessment. The only thing he is guilty of is that he should have clarified himself more. How many authors have cited their previous books when writing a new book? This is the same thing. In regard to his possible "getting what he deserves", I'm sorry but the statute of limitations applies here so Captain Stanton can't be prosecuted for anything. Third, someone should ask Mr. Burkett if he will publish a revised version of Stolen Valor correcting his mistakes and updating it since it was first published. Otherwise, Mr. Burkett owes Captain Stanton an apology but I wouldn't hold my breadth.

 

Yeah, that's the best place to look for sh1t.